Using our resources.

[D Mitchell]

When Keath joined us, I liked it that he had performed well as an intercept defender with the Crows and, having been a cricketer, didn't have the wear and tear at 27 years that others that age have. Ironic that he's now injury plagued. I hope that doesn't happen to O'Donnell.

[muzzyahoy]

I'm loving everyone's opinions on the defense and defensive structure, but I feel like we are over-looking our most major issues here.
The way our stoppage, clearance and and centre bounce groups lose structure without the ball is so glaring as our most major issue, it doesn't even seem to matter what our off/def do in regard to that. Our inability to maintain width and balance when we lose the battle for the loose ball is painful to watch, as I'm sure it is for all supporters when it happens to their teams. The way we get so one track minded for the ball as a collective, and then if we lose the contest lack the ability to switch gears and become defensive is by far the most frustrating element of this Team, and it has been so since 2017, IMO.

How you combat this has got me beat, but I think, defensively, we have too many offensively-minded defensemen. For every Bailey Dale, Jason Johannisen and Ed Richards, you need their defensive counterparts. That can be the same player, who is equally as committed to working as hard back on defense as he is trying to get forward for cheap snags. We lack that in our defensive group, but we more so lack that in our midfielders. Until we have a list that is willing to have the maturity to do this, we aren't going anywhere.

Thoughts?

[mjp]

...We lack that in our defensive group, but we more so lack that in our midfielders. Until we have a list that is willing to have the maturity to do this, we aren't going anywhere.

Thoughts?

But it's the same for every side...

Which group of mids is defensively minded? I know we are all highly critical of our group in this area but tell me which teams play with a defensively minded group of mids?

[muzzyahoy]

I guess when I say defensively minded, I'm meaning the ability to transition defensively. Every team takes the approach at every contest of winning the pill and becoming offensive. But the Bulldogs stoppage group's total belief that they are going to somehow still win the clearance, even when the opposition has won the ball, and the ball is no longer in dispute, is a problem that has existed for too many years now. The structure collapses, players get ball watching, the ball evades the collapsed group and now the opposition is running in a wave. The outnumber begins and defensively, our defenders don't stand a chance. As long as the opposition can identify their definitive outnumber, scoring becomes effortless.

How you then coach players ability to identify the right time to collapse around the footy, or maintain an exterior minded shape is for greater football minds than mine (obviously), but Geelong do it really well, GWS and Collingwood to an extent do it well.

Mainly, the way we play around the footy fails the eye test, and it's super evident on the way opposition seems to enter our defensive end. It was super evident watching the St. Kilda game two weeks ago. Did anyone else notice how much they looked like us defensively in that game?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I guess when I say defensively minded, I'm meaning the ability to transition defensively. Every team takes the approach at every contest of winning the pill and becoming offensive. But the Bulldogs stoppage group's total belief that they are going to somehow still win the clearance, even when the opposition has won the ball, and the ball is no longer in dispute, is a problem that has existed for too many years now. The structure collapses, players get ball watching, the ball evades the collapsed group and now the opposition is running in a wave. The outnumber begins and defensively, our defenders don't stand a chance. As long as the opposition can identify their definitive outnumber, scoring becomes effortless.

How you then coach players ability to identify the right time to collapse around the footy, or maintain an exterior minded shape is for greater football minds than mine (obviously), but Geelong do it really well, GWS and Collingwood to an extent do it well.

Mainly, the way we play around the footy fails the eye test, and it's super evident on the way opposition seems to enter our defensive end. It was super evident watching the St. Kilda game two weeks ago. Did anyone else notice how much they looked like us defensively in that game?

Great conversation and great post muzzyahoy... Gotta post more mate, some really interesting views here!

[mjp]

I guess when I say defensively minded, I'm meaning the ability to transition defensively. Every team takes the approach at every contest of winning the pill and becoming offensive. But the Bulldogs stoppage group's total belief that they are going to somehow still win the clearance, even when the opposition has won the ball, and the ball is no longer in dispute, is a problem that has existed for too many years now. The structure collapses, players get ball watching, the ball evades the collapsed group and now the opposition is running in a wave. The outnumber begins and defensively, our defenders don't stand a chance. As long as the opposition can identify their definitive outnumber, scoring becomes effortless.

How you then coach players ability to identify the right time to collapse around the footy, or maintain an exterior minded shape is for greater football minds than mine (obviously), but Geelong do it really well, GWS and Collingwood to an extent do it well.

Mainly, the way we play around the footy fails the eye test, and it's super evident on the way opposition seems to enter our defensive end. It was super evident watching the St. Kilda game two weeks ago. Did anyone else notice how much they looked like us defensively in that game?

I guess I get what you're saying. But I still want to challenge you to tell me what team - realistically - does what you're asking for. For example, we played Freo on the weekend...who out of Fyfe, Serong and Brayshaw is doing what you ask? None of them. Fyfe is legendary for winning brownlows and never defending. Doesn't mean he isn't a good player.

No team in the AFL does what you are looking for...they just don't.

You mention the Giants? Please. Green, Coniglio, Kelly etc - they haven't run defensively since Auskick...they are the ones with the ball. You mention Geelong? Are you trying to tell me Dangerfield runs defensively? Please.

Geelong and the Giants have a better structure/players (take your choice - Stewart and Taylor cover up for a LOT of mistakes) behind the ball which gives the mids more time...

If you want to criticise our guys for getting killed at the stop on the weekend - have at it. But they 100% push back to defend...could we do with some more legspeed in there to assist with the defensive running? Of course - and we've all been saying that. Liber, Macrae and Bont are mid-paced (generous) and getting in and out of the stop and into the next phase is not simple.

[Mofra]

But it's the same for every side...

Which group of mids is defensively minded? I know we are all highly critical of our group in this area but tell me which teams play with a defensively minded group of mids?

Geelong?
They lay the most tackles in the comp and outside of Guthrie who has missed most of the year and Danger who is now missing, do they even play pure accumulators?

I guess it's not so much 'defensively minded' but 'balanced'.

[Mofra]

When Keath joined us, I liked it that he had performed well as an intercept defender with the Crows and, having been a cricketer, didn't have the wear and tear at 27 years that others that age have. Ironic that he's now injury plagued. I hope that doesn't happen to O'Donnell.

Keath gave up football after barely being able to walk for two years as a Suns listed player. It's a miracle he got back to any high level sport, let alone AFL level.

[Bulldog Joe]

Keath gave up football after barely being able to walk for two years as a Suns listed player. It's a miracle he got back to any high level sport, let alone AFL level.

Didn't Keath reject the Suns for cricket?

I don't believe he ever went there for football.

[Sedat]

Geelong?
They lay the most tackles in the comp and outside of Guthrie who has missed most of the year and Danger who is now missing, do they even play pure accumulators?

I guess it's not so much 'defensively minded' but 'balanced'.

Yep, that's why Carlton got a Hewett type to better balance out their mids. And presumably why we got Harmes - if only we used him in the role he is actually competent at.

[mjp]

Geelong?
They lay the most tackles in the comp and outside of Guthrie who has missed most of the year and Danger who is now missing, do they even play pure accumulators?

I guess it's not so much 'defensively minded' but 'balanced'.

Having Stewart sweeping up everything behind the ball papers over a lot of cracks.

Adelaide pumped it inside 50m 60 times against the Cats...which backline in the comp can stand up to that...

[lemmon]

Yep, that's why Carlton got a Hewett type to better balance out their mids. And presumably why we got Harmes - if only we used him in the role he is actually competent at.

Isn't Hewett just Carlton's Tom Liberatore?

The bloke is a bloody good midfielder in his own right - he's averaging 24 touches and six clearances per game this year. Agree that he tackles and does the defensive stuff, but he's a lot more than just that and wins a lot of his own ball at the coal face.

I can't really think of a purely defensive midfielder - I'm thinking a Ryan Crowley type - getting a consistent game in the AFL anymore.

[Grantysghost]

Having Stewart sweeping up everything behind the ball papers over a lot of cracks.

Adelaide pumped it inside 50m 60 times against the Cats...which backline in the comp can stand up to that...

Demons?

I think the best teams don't purely rely on stoppage score. Sometimes I wonder if Melbourne even care half as much as other teams when they can trust what's behind so readily.

It's what makes their system the best in the competition I think.

If only they had a forward line. Van Rooyen is super important to them.

[mjp]

Isn't Hewett just Carlton's Tom Liberatore?

The bloke is a bloody good midfielder in his own right - he's averaging 24 touches and six clearances per game this year. Agree that he tackles and does the defensive stuff, but he's a lot more than just that and wins a lot of his own ball at the coal face.

I can't really think of a purely defensive midfielder - I'm thinking a Ryan Crowley type - getting a consistent game in the AFL anymore.

I guess Geelong use Atkins but he is more defensive cover/blood and guts than a Crowley type player...He does give balance though and is often the mid a surge kick behind the contest offering support to the backs...the Cats as a rule find a way to get a plus 1 defensively (and THEN they make sure Stewart is the plus).

Carlton don't use Hewett as a defender at all...I don't get that narrative. They are as 'run forward' as any team going around and hence are apt to leak goals on t/o for 10-minute blocks of games...

[mjp]

Demons?

Yeah. May and Lever are bloody good.

No doubt Geelong and the Dees are hard to score against.