Do we give 'RECYCLED PLAYERS' a fair go??

[Stevo]

As supporters we more or less view players based on how successful the team they arrived from was but some go hard at certain players. As a premiership player Duryea was given a fair shake by most of our supporters but Bramble coming from a less successful side is right up against it. Bringing in players from other sides is difficult task and especially when your not a high profile side.
In the main our supporters are skeptical when players arrive from other clubs and some of this is because of past mistakes rather than judging players on what they actually offer.

[comrade]

Yeah...but that's not HIS fault...but he copped untold criticism for not (to simplify it) being Marcus Bontempelli.

And sure, maybe he should never have been picked but I'm sure he deserved it based on training form...I don't know - this is kind of what I'm frustrated with I guess. I mean, it's OK to wish someone was better but the constant harping on - and this isn't you btw - that McComb needed to be dropped (insert Bramble as this years scapegoat) is just tiresome. All McComb ever did (as far as I could tell) is give it everything he had...Bramble seems to play like that as well. Yep - he turned it over a few times on the weekend...but his disposal efficiency was better than Bont, Caleb and Ed Richards...now whilst I have read some criticism of each of their performances as well nowhere have I seen any negativity about the 'careless' way they dispose of the footy...

It just 'feels' unfair. I mean, it wasn't Bramble's fault we recruited him...and it's not his fault the MC picked him. Surely all we can ask is that he has a decent crack? If he stuffs it up, well, maybe that's just who/what he is...maybe we just need to take the good with the bad (like we need to with all players 'cos none of them are perfect).

Maybe it's just me but all I want to see is them having a crack...if they mess it up, well, so be it. If they repeatedly mess it up in the SAME WAY, that's not on them - that IS them. That's on the MC to stop picking them OR on their team-mates who are out of the side to play better/train better and get ahead of them...

The difference between a Bramble & a Bont (or Richards, Caleb) is they can have terrible moments that are made up by the sublime brilliance they?re capable of. If Bramble fluffs his lines, there isn?t much coming back the other way. Not his fault, but you can understand the lenience. Fringe players has less margin for error as the good generally doesn?t outweigh the bad.

You are spot on with the MC being responsible for continuing to pick players who let us down. That?s been happening for years.

[lemmon]

I think we're harsh on role players rather than recycled players.

Laith and McNeil cop it as much as anyone and are ostensibly 'ours'. They try hard, they're good trainers, they're no-fuss - but they also fumble, miss opportunities, don't get a stack of the ball and don't make 'moments' in the same way more talented players do. I don't think supporters have more affection for them because we drafted or recruited them, we see the flaws and that's what we focus on.

I think it's much the same as the criticism that Harmes, Bramble and Baker get - we hone in on the flaws and that's where we end up spending most of our focus.

I disagree that 'effort' should be enough to expect from a player. Effort doesn't make finals and effort doesn't win flags. I don't think footy fans have ever been drawn to effort or doggedness unless it was combined with an ability to play the game or be bloody good at a role within it. I'm thinking of Tony Liberatore, Liam Picken and Dale Morris - we love them because they 'tried', but minimising them as 'good, honest triers' is an unfair summation of their talents.

I do agree that some of the way supporters talk about players is ridiculous and that's where the change should be. I agree that it's not their 'fault', and the discourse needs to be far less emotional than it is. It's not right to jump online and ostensibly abuse a Vandermeer or a Bramble because they 'can't kick', but supporters do have a right to voice that they think those guys shouldn't be in the side, or on the list (ala McComb).

I think that can be extended to the media too, where the way players are spoken about can be incredibly unprofessional.

Adam Treloar is an interesting example to pull out. I think he isn't universally lauded because he's a 'run forward' midfielder in a midfield that has a 'run forward' problem. We hone in and focus on that flaw and it clouds a lot of the conversation in terms of what he does right. Matthew Boyd was a similar stature player and absolutely one of our own, but I don't think supporters ever fully embraced him because he didn't kick it well and was slow - again, we focus on those flaws rather than three BnFs and three All Australians.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

It's horrible, though this did make me laugh when I read it.

The lengths people will go to in order to let off steam amazes me.

Yeah, its reflection from stories like that that really changed my whole outlook on my relationship with football. There is no way I'm giving it that amount of agency. Its like betting your mood on the outcome of a bingo draw....you would'nt do it. You get one life, and to superglue your behaviour/emotions and justifications on something as capricious as a football match just doesn't seem a good investment from my perspective.

To think you'd go to the lengths' to find where a player's parents live and hurl abuse at them over a football game.. Wow..
Has anyone seen Buffalo 66. Please do. What an amazing movie that was. Vincent Gallo, Christina Ricci.... at a shallow level about a dude who decides that his life turned out so bad because of a Buffalo Bills kicker missing a field goal in a Super Bowl...
So when he happens to come across this now retired kicker, many years later when he grows up, he starts thinking about how unfair it is....
I'll leave it there.
It's actually underneath a charming, quirky movie and speaks to the issue we're covering here. Fantastic acting by both of the leads too.

[mjp]

I disagree that 'effort' should be enough to expect from a player. Effort doesn't make finals and effort doesn't win flags. I don't think footy fans have ever been drawn to effort or doggedness unless it was combined with an ability to play the game or be bloody good at a role within it.

I disagree on this but fair enough.

I would though encourage you to think back of role players of the past and the way they are thought of...

If you take the 97-side as an example, we had a few superstars playing (Grant, West, Johnno, Smith etc) but if you think of the group:

Mark West is remembered as an injury prone hard hitter.
Simon Cox was a great left foot kick.
Craig Ellis a versatile CHB.
Matthew Dent a HARD half back.
Todd Curley a 'neat' running defender who was harshly done by at the tribunal.
James Cook as an amazing talent who 'could' have been anything.
etc.

We don't look back at those blokes and say:
Mark West was a peanut who needed to keep his eyes on the footy.
Simon Cox was allergic to contact and couldn't be counted on to keep his feet.
Craig Ellis was easily pushed around.
Matthew Dent sprayed the footy by foot at the WORST possible times.
Todd Curley was...well....he was there I guess.
James Cook was lazy and out of shape.

We just didn't used to think in the terms we do now...they were OUR players.

My thoughts on the Gardner and McComb stuff are well known...it was disgusting.

[angelopetraglia]

I still rememebr the trip home on the train after the 1997 prelim. My brother's sadness and then anger was all being taken out on poor Todd Curely after Jarman ripped our hearts out. He didn't want Todd Curley to step a foot inside the Whitten Oval ever again.

In hindsight with what Jarman did in the GF and the revelation he was as a forward, Jesus Christ could have played on Darren Jarman that day and the result would not have changed.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I still rememebr the trip home on the train after the 1997 prelim. My brother's sadness and then anger was all being taken out on poor Todd Curely after Jarman ripped our hearts out. He didn't want Todd Curley to step a foot inside the Whitten Oval ever again.

In hindsight with what Jarman did in the GF and the revelation he was as a forward, Jesus Christ could have played on Darren Jarman that day and the result would not have changed.

Yeah, JC's number 1 adversary might've been a better option for that job on that day...

[mighty_west]

Yeah...but that's not HIS fault...but he copped untold criticism for not (to simplify it) being Marcus Bontempelli.

And sure, maybe he should never have been picked but I'm sure he deserved it based on training form...I don't know - this is kind of what I'm frustrated with I guess. I mean, it's OK to wish someone was better but the constant harping on - and this isn't you btw - that McComb needed to be dropped (insert Bramble as this years scapegoat) is just tiresome. All McComb ever did (as far as I could tell) is give it everything he had...Bramble seems to play like that as well. Yep - he turned it over a few times on the weekend...but his disposal efficiency was better than Bont, Caleb and Ed Richards...now whilst I have read some criticism of each of their performances as well nowhere have I seen any negativity about the 'careless' way they dispose of the footy...

It just 'feels' unfair. I mean, it wasn't Bramble's fault we recruited him...and it's not his fault the MC picked him. Surely all we can ask is that he has a decent crack? If he stuffs it up, well, maybe that's just who/what he is...maybe we just need to take the good with the bad (like we need to with all players 'cos none of them are perfect).

Maybe it's just me but all I want to see is them having a crack...if they mess it up, well, so be it. If they repeatedly mess it up in the SAME WAY, that's not on them - that IS them. That's on the MC to stop picking them OR on their team-mates who are out of the side to play better/train better and get ahead of them...

That goes with everything, drafting, the pressures of the number 1 pick vs pick 38, the first rounders etc, it's not the players fault they're picked so early if they haven't performed to everyone's expectations, sure they may have looked like superstars in the under 18's but not all good juniors make it for various reasons.

Then we have the pressures on Tom Boyd, not his fault he went pick 1, sure cop some flack for wanting to go home but again, not his fault he's on such a massive contract, where was the heat on Pickering (his manager)? or Gordon? they made the deal, they're the ones doing all the wheelin' and dealin' etc not Tom himself, yet it was Tom copping it so much i no doubt it was part of the reason he lost the love of the game.

[GVGjr]

Fans can be irrational and the players especially from other sides often wear the brunt of any frustration after a loss.
Look at Treloar, despite being a hard worker and quality player he's often in the firing line with our supporters.
His crimes are that he's well paid and slow good mates with a Premiership player and club best and fairest winner who happened to leave us.

[bornadog]

I still rememebr the trip home on the train after the 1997 prelim. My brother's sadness and then anger was all being taken out on poor Todd Curely after Jarman ripped our hearts out. He didn't want Todd Curley to step a foot inside the Whitten Oval ever again.

In hindsight with what Jarman did in the GF and the revelation he was as a forward, Jesus Christ could have played on Darren Jarman that day and the result would not have changed.

the emotional immaturity that is displayed when we lose is hard to bare, so I don’t log on as much

[jeemak]

Yeah, its reflection from stories like that that really changed my whole outlook on my relationship with football. There is no way I'm giving it that amount of agency. Its like betting your mood on the outcome of a bingo draw....you would'nt do it. You get one life, and to superglue your behaviour/emotions and justifications on something as capricious as a football match just doesn't seem a good investment from my perspective.

To think you'd go to the lengths' to find where a player's parents live and hurl abuse at them over a football game.. Wow..
Has anyone seen Buffalo 66. Please do. What an amazing movie that was. Vincent Gallo, Christina Ricci.... at a shallow level about a dude who decides that his life turned out so bad because of a Buffalo Bills kicker missing a field goal in a Super Bowl...
So when he happens to come across this now retired kicker, many years later when he grows up, he starts thinking about how unfair it is....
I'll leave it there.
It's actually underneath a charming, quirky movie and speaks to the issue we're covering here. Fantastic acting by both of the leads too.

I am on the same bus as you. It's just football, and the controllable parts of your life are difficult enough to manage as it is without worrying about how a team winning or losing will impact you.

At a societal level I think we've all forgotten how hard stuff is to do, and that experts and professionals work ridiculously hard to be those things in highly competitive environments. And it turns us into pricks when assessing the lesser talented of those experts and professionals, or those who for whatever reason aren't getting the desired results.

[Sedat]

I am on the same bus as you. It's just football, and the controllable parts of your life are difficult enough to manage as it is without worrying about how a team winning or losing will impact you.

100% this, although it certainly helped that we won 2016 out of nowhere. "The journey" is a much easier sell these days than it was pre-2016.

I would have just about tapped out from the game had we snagged another flag from outside the top 4 in 2021 - while those of us based in Melbourne were locked in our homes like stray dogs during that finals series, the one outlet we had was watching our exhilarating run during that September - destroying Essendon and making them a laughing stock kicking 4 goal in a final, pipping Brisbane in a thriller up at the Gabba (amazing game of footy that has been underappreciated by the wider footy community) and then clinically obliterating Port on their home patch. After everything the club had to endure during that finals series from all those psychopath state premiers at the time, it would have been the best premiership in VFL/AFL history IMO.

I lost quite a bit of enthusiasm in the ensuing 2 years after our capitulation in that GF, but I've rediscovered interest for the team and game again this year - have really enjoyed more regularly going to live matches again this year.

[Grantysghost]

100% this, although it certainly helped that we won 2016 out of nowhere. "The journey" is a much easier sell these days than it was pre-2016.

I would have just about tapped out from the game had we snagged another flag from outside the top 4 in 2021 - while those of us based in Melbourne were locked in our homes like stray dogs during that finals series, the one outlet we had was watching our exhilarating run during that September - destroying Essendon and making them a laughing stock kicking 4 goal in a final, pipping Brisbane in a thriller up at the Gabba (amazing game of footy that has been underappreciated by the wider footy community) and then clinically obliterating Port on their home patch. After everything the club had to endure during that finals series from all those psychopath state premiers at the time, it would have been the best premiership in VFL/AFL history IMO.

I lost quite a bit of enthusiasm in the ensuing 2 years after our capitulation in that GF, but I've rediscovered interest for the team and game again this year - have really enjoyed more regularly going to live matches again this year.

The only flag of merit during Covid would've been the Dogs one.

My dog gets to go outside.

[Sedat]

The only flag of merit during Covid would've been the Dogs one.

My dog gets to go outside.

Not going to lie, in 2020 when Dusty made Dangerfield clutch thin air and then face plant the ground on the way to another Norm Smith, it was about as enjoyable as non-Bulldogs footy gets. That is enough to stamp 2020 as authentic for mine.

[EasternWest]

100% this, although it certainly helped that we won 2016 out of nowhere. "The journey" is a much easier sell these days than it was pre-2016.

I would have just about tapped out from the game had we snagged another flag from outside the top 4 in 2021 - while those of us based in Melbourne were locked in our homes like stray dogs during that finals series, the one outlet we had was watching our exhilarating run during that September - destroying Essendon and making them a laughing stock kicking 4 goal in a final, pipping Brisbane in a thriller up at the Gabba (amazing game of footy that has been underappreciated by the wider footy community) and then clinically obliterating Port on their home patch. After everything the club had to endure during that finals series from all those psychopath state premiers at the time, it would have been the best premiership in VFL/AFL history IMO.

I lost quite a bit of enthusiasm in the ensuing 2 years after our capitulation in that GF, but I've rediscovered interest for the team and game again this year - have really enjoyed more regularly going to live matches again this year.

Point of order: how can a stray dog be locked in its home?