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  1. #1
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    Fight brews over 'Bulldog Hilton'

    Interesting times ahead...

    Fight brews over 'Bulldog Hilton'
    Cameron Houston
    July 24, 2008

    GAMING giant Tatts Group and the Western Bulldogs are mounting a legal challenge against Maribyrnong City Council's decision to knock back a proposed $25 million hotel development dubbed the "Bulldog Hilton".

    In legal documents lodged with the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal, the Bulldogs' legal team claim the council has made several mistakes in its decision and deny the development would have a negative impact on the community.

    The proposal, which includes 65 poker machines, a function room and four-star hotel, was unanimously rejected by the council in May after more than 300 objections.

    Residents of Edgewater estate, opposite Flemington Racecourse on the Maribyrnong River, where the hotel would be built, have vowed to take on the football team at VCAT and are considering a class action against developer Delfin Lend Lease, which sold the site to Tatts Group and developer Prizac in 2006.

    The council rejected the hotel proposal after finding that it breached local planning guidelines, would damage local amenity and exacerbate problem gambling. The municipality has average annual pokie losses per adult of $1148, the highest in the state.

    "If the Bulldogs want to uphold their role as the community club, they will have to rethink the impact of gaming machines on our community and look at other ways of income generation," said Mayor Michelle MacDonald.

    Aside from the legal battle between Tatts, the Western Bulldogs and the council, the Victorian Commission for Gambling Regulation must also approve the plan.

    Community group spokesman Enzo De Fazio said Edgewater residents had not been told of a deal between Delfin Lend Lease and Tatts Group to build a large-scale gaming venue on the 95-hectare estate. "A lot of people are pissed off and we are certainly considering taking some kind of class action against Delfin Lend Lease. "We would not have bought into the area had we known that a huge gaming venue with a 20-hour-a-day liquor licence would be within 30 metres of our homes," Mr De Fazio said.

    Delfin Lend Lease chief operating officer Bryce Moore said the venue was permitted within the City of Maribyrnong Planning Scheme. "It is proposed on a site within Edgewater Place, which is the commercial and retail precinct within the project," Mr Moore said.

    Bulldogs director Neil O'Keefe said the venue's gaming area would account for less than 3% of total floor space. "All sourced machines are being relocated from lower socio-demographic areas as compared to Edgewater, which is among the highest socio-demographic of the municipality," he said.

    Greens MP and western suburbs resident Colleen Hartland said: "If the Bulldogs are saying they are doing this to raise money for community interests, they are going about it the wrong way."

  2. #2
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    Re: Fight brews over 'Bulldog Hilton'

    Gee this annoys me!

    It's not we are putting extra poker machines into the municipality, just relocating those already there.

    There are heaps of Pokies venues nearby, so stopping the Bulldogs relocating theirs will not stop problem gambling.

    I sympathise with people who are addicted, but by stopping this, does anyone seriously think it's going to make a blind bit of difference?

    There's x amount of gamimg revenue to be divvied up amongst the operators of pokies venues. I'd much rather some of that x went to the club I support rather than pub owners.

    This is a furphy. It's not about additional pokies & the effects on the community, it's about relocating existing machines to an alternative venue.

  3. #3
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    Re: Fight brews over 'Bulldog Hilton'

    If we could generate the same level of income via more "socially responsible" means I would be rapt. I have been indirectly involved in what poker machines can do and would much rather see them abolished. But the real world doesn't allow that to happen. If it's purely a relocation of existing machines I can't see how it's a huge issue. The only concerns council and residents should have would be increased traffic volumes in the immediate area.

  4. #4
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    Re: Fight brews over 'Bulldog Hilton'

    Quote Originally Posted by craigsahibee View Post
    If we could generate the same level of income via more "socially responsible" means I would be rapt. I have been indirectly involved in what poker machines can do and would much rather see them abolished. But the real world doesn't allow that to happen. If it's purely a relocation of existing machines I can't see how it's a huge issue. The only concerns council and residents should have would be increased traffic volumes in the immediate area.
    My thoughts exactly, if the bulldog Hilton was going to bring in more poker machines than there alredy are, I would be against it and agree with the decision to reject the plans. But since it is just relocation of our poker machines, I do not see how it is a problem.

  5. #5
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    Re: Fight brews over 'Bulldog Hilton'

    Anyone who bets against machines that are programmed to win deserve all they get.

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    Re: Fight brews over 'Bulldog Hilton'

    Yes and no. Edgewater is a bloody expensive estate to buy in. If i bought property there i wouldn't want anything being built that would devalue the area, particularly as the developer failed to tell the buyers about such a controversial thing as a pokies venue. Clearly this would increase traffic, noise, maybe some unsavioury types, late at nights to the area and would probably reduce the quality of life for the residents. hence it may make it a less desirable area to live in, driving property values down. Personally I'd like to see the damned things banned altogether, but the government makes too much money from them

  7. #7
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    Re: Fight brews over 'Bulldog Hilton'

    Quote Originally Posted by Sockeye Salmon View Post
    Anyone who bets against machines that are programmed to win deserve all they get.
    I, like you can't see the "fun" of losing money. I've walked around the casino seeing people having "fun" losing money they have worked hard for. But for problem gamblers its not that easy. They have an addiction of sorts and need help and support. Remember ex-Bulldog Brad Hardy is/was one, same with David Shwartz

  8. #8
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    Re: Fight brews over 'Bulldog Hilton'

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefcep View Post
    Yes and no. Edgewater is a bloody expensive estate to buy in. If i bought property there i wouldn't want anything being built that would devalue the area, particularly as the developer failed to tell the buyers about such a controversial thing as a pokies venue. Clearly this would increase traffic, noise, maybe some unsavioury types, late at nights to the area and would probably reduce the quality of life for the residents. hence it may make it a less desirable area to live in, driving property values down. Personally I'd like to see the damned things banned altogether, but the government makes too much money from them
    I don't think the development is focussed only on pokies - that is a small side area of the development in total.

  9. #9
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    Re: Fight brews over 'Bulldog Hilton'

    The REAL issue here is that we will have a quality establishment in the west what is it going to take for the council to realise that the better amenities we have in the western suburbs the better as for driving down propety values what utter rubbish . what about the money this will bring local bussneses not to mention money for our football club .I agree too many pokies in the west but it is the hotels that should not be allowed to have them they should ONLY be allowed in sporting and rsl clubs

  10. #10
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    Re: Fight brews over 'Bulldog Hilton'

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefcep View Post
    Yes and no. Edgewater is a bloody expensive estate to buy in. If i bought property there i wouldn't want anything being built that would devalue the area, particularly as the developer failed to tell the buyers about such a controversial thing as a pokies venue. Clearly this would increase traffic, noise, maybe some unsavioury types, late at nights to the area and would probably reduce the quality of life for the residents. hence it may make it a less desirable area to live in, driving property values down. Personally I'd like to see the damned things banned altogether, but the government makes too much money from them

    Geez that's a load of elitist WANK.

    Rich estates is PRECISELY where these things should be placed, if they're going to be placed anywhere. For one thing, those from the area who should 'frequent' the place would be able to afford it better and be less likely to be trapped in a 'poverty cycle', the greatest revenue from gambling are from the RICH, not the poor, and putting gambling venues in lower socio-economic areas is the ONE SURE WAY to add problem gamblers to the world.. and we wouldn't want any more 'unsavoury types', would we now.

    If we were moving (instead of getting rid of) gambling machines, moving it from a lower socio-economic area to a higher socio-economic area is the ONLY responsible option. Those guys in their gated community of Edgewater can start to live in the real world instead of assuming they can buy their way out of reality, and accept their culpability in the class war before having the GALL to put in narrow-minded and arrogant objections.

    AS IF it would drive down property prices. Do you even KNOW how property prices work?

    Do you think my apartment in the inner-city is cheaper because it's next to a pub?

    Fark me.
    Last edited by LostDoggy; 25-07-2008 at 05:23 PM.

  11. #11
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    Re: Fight brews over 'Bulldog Hilton'

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefcep View Post
    Clearly this would increase traffic, noise, maybe some unsavioury types, late at nights to the area and would probably reduce the quality of life for the residents. hence it may make it a less desirable area to live in, driving property values down.
    You mean Essendon supporters?

  12. #12
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    Re: Fight brews over 'Bulldog Hilton'

    Council has no credibility in this argument.

    They seemed to have no issue with approving tacky all night gambling dens like 'The Palms' in Rosamond Road (in a lower income part of Maribyrnong that should perhaps not have these types of machines) but try and build a classy venue with a couple of 'relocated' poker machines in Toorak West (Edgewater) and it's gloves off.

    Perhaps another developer with a bigger 'donation' budget has an eye on it??

  13. #13
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    Re: Fight brews over 'Bulldog Hilton'

    Yeah the elitism of those wankers really pisses me off.

    Regardless of how it is named they bought property in Maribyrnong and are not upper class people who have some right to everything they want.

  14. #14
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    Re: Fight brews over 'Bulldog Hilton'

    Quote Originally Posted by Lantern View Post
    Geez that's a load of elitist WANK.

    Rich estates is PRECISELY where these things should be placed, if they're going to be placed anywhere. For one thing, those from the area who should 'frequent' the place would be able to afford it better and be less likely to be trapped in a 'poverty cycle', the greatest revenue from gambling are from the RICH, not the poor, and putting gambling venues in lower socio-economic areas is the ONE SURE WAY to add problem gamblers to the world.. and we wouldn't want any more 'unsavoury types', would we now.

    If we were moving (instead of getting rid of) gambling machines, moving it from a lower socio-economic area to a higher socio-economic area is the ONLY responsible option. Those guys in their gated community of Edgewater can start to live in the real world instead of assuming they can buy their way out of reality, and accept their culpability in the class war before having the GALL to put in narrow-minded and arrogant objections.

    AS IF it would drive down property prices. Do you even KNOW how property prices work?

    Do you think my apartment in the inner-city is cheaper because it's next to a pub?

    Fark me.
    Than you for your opinion Mr Marx.

    Elitist? Your post smacks of the victim-mentality if some of those who find themselves at the lower end of the soci-economic ladder: Lets blame the better-offs who were all born with a silver spoon in their mouths for all of our failures, lets stick these pokies in to get their money so that we can drag them down to our level and make them pay. I grew up in Yarraville (Severn St), my old man worked for 12 hours a week for 25 years in Borthwicks, Smorgans meats, and later Arnott's biscuits driving a forklift, my old lady was a cleaner, we never had a phone or a car until I was 14, or a color tv. But i took a job at the Coles in Footscray when i was 16, studied hard-and worked- during my time at Uni, and yeah i've got a good job now but I've paid $350,000 in income tax in 16 working years (which has found its way to the unemployed, the single mums, the disabled, the less well to do) and I STILL have a $200,000 mortgage and I now work 50 hours per week raising a family. I don't live in Edgewater, but I thought about doing it, and most of the people there aren't ex-Toorak Toffs, they are people like myself who thought they would buy into an inner-city locality with good facilities, a good environment to raise a family, even if it cost more.

    Wake up!!! Why do you think there are more poker machines per capita in Melbourne's West? Its because there is more money to be made from financially-struggling people who think that they can make money by gambling money, and then get into a viscous loop trying to get it back, because they never could afford to lose it in the first place. Those who have the money don't gamble for those reasons. Do you really believe that the people living in Edgewater are all of the sudden going to start gambling there, because they couldn't drive the 3 km they currently have to to get to a pokies venue? The Hotel will survive by drawing outside people into Edgwater, not by attracting the local residents. Your idea that putting a pokies venue in an affluent area will somehow redrees social inequality is just an ill-considered fantasy.

    They are proposing a poker machine that has a license to serve/purchase alcohol for 20 out of 24 hours. There is a long-established correlation between access to late night alcohol, gambling and increased traffic flow, drunkedness, criminal activity, noise, violence and other antisocial behavior. Why would any resident want to live near any of THAT? Would YOU?

    Your post shows that its you who has little understanding of what determines property values. FYI:
    1. Supply and demand
    2. Easy availability and access to services such as quality schools, public transport, shopping centres, employment opportunities.
    3. Social environment free from crime, violence, and other anti-social behaviour eg public drunkedness, street gangs, public noise.

    And yes your inner city apartment IS worth less than an inner-city apartment that is NOT next to a pub.

    Your post is the biggest piece of biased one-eyed drivel I ave read. YOU are supporting this Hotel ONLY because its the western Bulldogs that are ban-rolling it. I DON'T support it because THATS the right thing to do.

  15. #15
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    Re: Fight brews over 'Bulldog Hilton'

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefcep View Post
    They are proposing a poker machine that has a license to serve/purchase alcohol for 20 out of 24 hours. There is a long-established correlation between access to late night alcohol, gambling and increased traffic flow, drunkedness, criminal activity, noise, violence and other antisocial behavior. Why would any resident want to live near any of THAT? Would YOU?
    The council had no issue building a TACKY gambling and drinking den next to my house (and a primary school)!!

    The council also had no issue rushing through approval for other 'less important' developments in Maribyrnong so why turn around and ask the Bulldogs to wait in line???

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