What went wrong.

[Mantis]

After stewing on this for a while I have concluded that if Higgins plays 300 games and kicks as many goals for us as Grant has done at Sydney and North I would be very happy.

What if Higgins kicks more goals than lays tackles, still happy?

[FrediKanoute]

This reeks of a real cop-out excuse to me from a coach who has no answer as to why the team performed the way they did. We smashed Collingwood in an Elimination final in 2006 in front of 10,000 more people at the same venue in a night game. We were even more outnumbered playing Collingwood than we were against Hawthorn. Doesn't make sense to me other than that the players were scared of quality opposition because of their recent poor form, however Eade has said time and again over the past 4 weeks that the players are confident in their ability.

Different team/different night.

Remember that team had Smith, West, Grant, Monty, Robbo.

Collingwood 2006 were nothing like Hawks 2008. Besides we have the wood on Collingwood!!!

[1eyedog]

What if Higgins kicks more goals than lays tackles, still happy?

Ultimately I would prefer Higgins as an attacking forward who kicks goals but also works hard on the defensive side of his game. I get your point, at present he doesn't. To answer your question, no, I would only be really happy with him if he understood the importance of defensive pressure. We have enough so-called attacking players who don't work hard enough going the other way. Hopefully down the track Higgins is more disciplined.

[bornadog]

His role isn't to kick goals, it's to lead up and take grabs so the players who do "kick goals" (Welsh, Minson) can have space to lead into, then to play on quickly so the aforementioned "goal kickers" can have first use of the ball.

And his past 6 weeks weren't that bad...he certainly hasn't been our worst.

Murphy in the last 6 weeks has been nowhere in the form he was in the first half of the year. Have alook at his stats, he has averaged 16 disposals a week in the past 6 weeks.

[Mantis]

Cross, Lake and Guido all had a dip. So did Hargrave.

Minson tried all night but didn't have much luck. Got raped by Croad early and the umpire swallowed his whistle. I really think he gets a harsh run with the umpires at times.

Hahn was clearly struggling with his ribs.

At the start of the 3rd qtr after we had kicked the first 2 goals and were gaining some momentum Hargrave did the following within about 5 min's:

1. Gave away a silly free kick 30m straight in front at a ruck contest - Goal to Osborne (his opponent)

2. 90 sec's later, allowed his opponent (Osborne) to get goal side of him deep in the pocket. His opponent ran into goal for easy goal, missed tackle by Callan on the way, but Callan had to leave his man to give Hargrave a chop out.

3. A couple of min's later Hargrave got involved in a wrestling match in the centre with Osborne and gave away another free kick.

Osborne also gave a couple of lace out passes to Buddy during this time, but one he dropped and the other resulted in a point.

[hujsh]

Collingwood 2006 were nothing like Hawks 2008. Besides we have the wood on Collingwood!!!

We do now but we'd been smashed the last time we played them.

[bornadog]

Clangers, Errors too many by a few players made a difference:

[Mantis]

^^^

2 error's for Cross. I must have watched a different game.

[bornadog]

^^^

2 error's for Cross. I must have watched a different game.

Yes some strange stats. Also according to this: http://www.pro-stats.com.au/psw/web/...ts?mid=2008177


We won the clearances?

[mjp]

I don't disagree that Cross made some errors, but he was far from the problem...

[mjp]

Yes some strange stats. Also according to this: http://www.pro-stats.com.au/psw/web/...ts?mid=2008177


We won the clearances?

Yes....but that is not a great stat. We won the ball - they put us under pressure - we kicked it to their lose man - they ran, carried and hit targets inside 50. The stoppage stat is a poor one as it is based on the possession that 'clears' the congestion, not the first effective possession that clears the pack.

Hawthorn - like Geelong - are only an average stoppage team...but both rate very highly in scores from stoppages....they understand what is important.

[Mantis]

I don't disagree that Cross made some errors, but he was far from the problem...

He was a big part of the problem. His performance reminded me of a few of the Port player's output in last years GF, except he showed a lot more ticker. Having watched the game a few times now it's probably the highest possession/ least influence on a match I've seen for a while.

[Sedat]

Yes some strange stats. Also according to this: http://www.pro-stats.com.au/psw/web/...ts?mid=2008177


We won the clearances?

Not when it counted in the first half. I was sitting right in front of a TV monitor, saw the qtr time and half time stats come up, and they were dog ugly. Hawthorn had almost double the inside 50's, clearances and hard ball gets up to half time. We actually dominated general play for the majority of the 2nd half but by then, a) we were a mile behind and it was glorified junk time, and b) Hawthorn were nursing 3-4 injured players on the bench and had no rotations they could bring through.

[Go_Dogs]

Yes....but that is not a great stat. We won the ball - they put us under pressure - we kicked it to their lose man - they ran, carried and hit targets inside 50. The stoppage stat is a poor one as it is based on the possession that 'clears' the congestion, not the first effective possession that clears the pack.

Hawthorn - like Geelong - are only an average stoppage team...but both rate very highly in scores from stoppages....they understand what is important.

Yep, too true.

The Hawks 'balls to advantage' stats (ok there is no such thing, I made it up, but geez, handy stat ...) would look much better than ours. Stuff the errors and efficiency ratings, the majority of time they got the ball, they put it to a team mates advantage, or the teams advantage...we didn't.

As soon as we got caught out on a turnover all of our numbers were out of place, and no one was positioned to pressure going backwards.

In your expert opinion mjp, is this a structural problem, a work ethic problem or a more baffling combination effect?

[bornadog]

Not when it counted in the first half. I was sitting right in front of a TV monitor, saw the qtr time and half time stats come up, and they were dog ugly. Hawthorn had almost double the inside 50's, clearances and hard ball gets up to half time. We actually dominated general play for the majority of the 2nd half but by then, a) we were a mile behind and it was glorified junk time, and b) Hawthorn were nursing 3-4 injured players on the bench and had no rotations they could bring through.

and we still couldn't make any inroads.