Recovered Murphy a 'different man'

[LostDoggy]

For the coaches out there. If the zone is in place, what options are there?
If we are behind like we were late in the prelim, I don't know of many other options other than bombing long. Sure we can ping around and try to draw them out but sitting on a lead a well drilled side won't be leaving the zone too quick.

[Pembleton]

For the coaches out there. If the zone is in place, what options are there?
If we are behind like we were late in the prelim, I don't know of many other options other than bombing long. Sure we can ping around and try to draw them out but sitting on a lead a well drilled side won't be leaving the zone too quick.

Run it through with numbers linked by handballs to create a running shot at goal?

On the Bobby kicking debate, i think he is exceptional at weighting a pass, but has never been particularly good at kicking it flat and hard at a target leading towards him. This actually lends itself to the hot spot kicking Mantis raised, because he is good at dropping the ball on a good spot.

I think he does it a bit thoughtlessly at times though...his decision making seems to have suffered in the last few seasons, probably due to missing a lot of games here and there, and not being able to get out on the track much. Or perhaps he just hasn't trusted his legs to buy him the extra second or so of think time that a quick side step was always able to get him before his big knee?

[mjp]

For the coaches out there. If the zone is in place, what options are there?

Get it down there before the zone has had time to get set. Either that or resign yourself to either:

1/.A shot on goal from the boundary.
2/.Kicking to a contest (and I mean 2 on 2 or worse) and praying for either a mark (unlikely - incredibly unlikely) or a front and centre (still unlikely but slight increase of a chance).

[LostDoggy]

Really?

Personally I think this is one area of Murf's game that needs to improve. I find that he plays on and then 'bombs' the ball to the 'hot spot' far too often when perhaps he should work hard off the mark and try and spot up a leading player as suggested.

Mantis Murph has always been a talented player, he's aggressive when needed, an accurate kick, a thinker, an all round Star for us.If he happens to bomb the ball up, it's only because he see's the best opportunity of converting is to "a" have someone take a mark or "b" create a ruck contest that could give us a roving opportunity to goal.
Even when oly 80% fit he's stil got 110% HEART

[Sockeye Salmon]

Get it down there before the zone has had time to get set. Either that or resign yourself to either:

1/.A shot on goal from the boundary.
2/.Kicking to a contest (and I mean 2 on 2 or worse) and praying for either a mark (unlikely - incredibly unlikely) or a front and centre (still unlikely but slight increase of a chance).

But isn't the answer to all Bulldog supporters prayers a big forward who takes contested pack marks?

[mjp]

But isn't the answer to all Bulldog supporters prayers a big forward who takes contested pack marks?

Yep - but it isn't 1975 and there are no one-out contests for Templeton to take advantage of. No-one in the entire competition takes the kind of marks we all fantasise about - but because we haven't had someone 'threatening' to do it we allow ourselves to dream.

Franklin does it on athleticism, Brown is good one-on-one (but cannot unravel the riddle of one-on-two), Fev gets you on the lead (and so does Riewoldt), Cloke isn't as good since he gained 15kgs 'cos he cant cover the ground anymore, Kossy did it for 4 games back in 2005 but hasn't come close to that form since...who else even is there?

Hall you say? Well, he is a lead up forward. That is his go. More than that, he is a lead-up forward in his mid-30's with his best footy in his past, not his future.

[Mofra]

And if the zone is already in place?

Then it's largely too late, which is why the coaching staff ask players to play on, make quick decisions etc. Smart/quick decision makers are gold in modern footy, and Murphy is one of them.

But, by definition, if Murphy in a lead up role, takes the mark and then plays on, it will be unlikely that the zone will already be in place. In this situation, he should have a forward set-up which allows whoever is up there (it won't always be Hall) to be one out with their opponent(s)

Exactly, that was my point. Glad someone understood it.

[Mantis]

Then it's largely too late, which is why the coaching staff ask players to play on, make quick decisions etc. Smart/quick decision makers are gold in modern footy, and Murphy is one of them.

Murphy has become by and large 'predictable' with his forward entries and the opposition are a wake up to it. Playing on and kicking long to the 'hot spot' might get the ball inside 50 quickly (which is preferable), but if you pull the same move every time the opposing teams cotton on and then put in plans to counter this move.... which I feel has happened.

[Twodogs]

Murphy has become by and large 'predictable' with his forward entries and the opposition are a wake up to it. Playing on and kicking long to the 'hot spot' might get the ball inside 50 quickly (which is preferable), but if you pull the same move every time the opposing teams cotton on and then put in plans to counter this move.... which I feel has happened.

You dont think that might have something to do with the fact he hasnt had the abilty to shift direction or move sideways due to his chronic knee problems over the last couple of seasons?


If his knee has improved as much as they are saying it has then Murph can be a weapon in the forward line for us this year.

[LostDoggy]

Get it down there before the zone has had time to get set. Either that or resign yourself to either:

1/.A shot on goal from the boundary.
2/.Kicking to a contest (and I mean 2 on 2 or worse) and praying for either a mark (unlikely - incredibly unlikely) or a front and centre (still unlikely but slight increase of a chance).

My two cents:

Guys who can kick a goal from 60+ out become quite valuable. We've all seen the set play outside the 50 where Lindsay on quite a few occassions bobs up to take a short handpass from a half-forward and kick for goal. The deeper and deeper teams clog up space the more important these NAB-cup 9-point super-goals become.

Also goal-scoring midfielders -- ala Gablett, Bartel, Coons, Boydy -- become worth their weight in gold. Griff had three shots in the second quarter of the prelim after running at/around/through the zone that just missed. If any of those had gone in the Dogs' momentum would have been huge.

[LostDoggy]

Does anybody really think that Murphy's penchant for playing on arises from anything but team rules?

It might just be that if this action was considered not in the best interests of the side, Rocket would ban it.
.

Correct me if my memory is faulty, but I seem to recall that after our loss to the Saints in the H&A season after having the same number of forward 50 entries (most of which were taken by Gilbert/Fisher), Rocket came out and explicitly spoke about the quality of our forward 50 entries and singled out Murph (but also said that others were guilty of it) for bombing it in without looking DESPITE having worked on spotting up a lead.

It was after this game that it was a lot more noticeable that players taking a mark two kicks out took significantly more time to look around and spot up a free player, even if it meant holding on to the ball quite a bit.

In fact, IIRC, it was instrumental to the quality of our first two quarters in the prelim that we weren't just kicking it in and allowing the St.Kilda half-back line to rebound as they did in the H&A game, and were almost happy to just keep possession outside the 50 rather than kick it in and lose it (which of course, is counter-intuitive to 150 years of AFL tradition). It also contributed to us controlling the game without putting a huge score on.. very soccer like.

I think Rocket DID ban it -- he spoke after the Prelim about us getting tired towards the end and just going back to bad habits like bombing it blindly in to the hotspot, and it was no secret he was talking explicitly about Murph in the final quarter.

[Mantis]

You dont think that might have something to do with the fact he hasnt had the abilty to shift direction or move sideways due to his chronic knee problems over the last couple of seasons?

No I don't.

He has still tried to use his 'signature move' even with a dodgy knee. If his knee was giving him grief why not try to move the ball along with short calculated passes like Gia does. I know that this allows opposing teams to implememnt their zones, but I would prefer that we keep possession rather than sitting the ball on top of Hahn or Johnson's head.

[LostDoggy]

Correct me if my memory is faulty, but I seem to recall that after our loss to the Saints in the H&A season after having the same number of forward 50 entries (most of which were taken by Gilbert/Fisher), Rocket came out and explicitly spoke about the quality of our forward 50 entries and singled out Murph (but also said that others were guilty of it) for bombing it in without looking DESPITE having worked on spotting up a lead.

It was after this game that it was a lot more noticeable that players taking a mark two kicks out took significantly more time to look around and spot up a free player, even if it meant holding on to the ball quite a bit.

In fact, IIRC, it was instrumental to the quality of our first two quarters in the prelim that we weren't just kicking it in and allowing the St.Kilda half-back line to rebound as they did in the H&A game, and were almost happy to just keep possession outside the 50 rather than kick it in and lose it (which of course, is counter-intuitive to 150 years of AFL tradition). It also contributed to us controlling the game without putting a huge score on.. very soccer like.

I think Rocket DID ban it -- he spoke after the Prelim about us getting tired towards the end and just going back to bad habits like bombing it blindly in to the hotspot, and it was no secret he was talking explicitly about Murph in the final quarter.

I seem to recall he was talking about Hargrave after the H&A game

How many times did Murphy get his hands on the ball in the last quarter - not too many I would suggest?

[Go_Dogs]

Also goal-scoring midfielders -- ala Gablett, Bartel, Coons, Boydy -- become worth their weight in gold. Griff had three shots in the second quarter of the prelim after running at/around/through the zone that just missed. If any of those had gone in the Dogs' momentum would have been huge.

In general, I think midfielders need to get more dangerous. Geelong always have a few mids drift forward just inside the I50, who can get spotted up with short sideways kicks that result in shots on goal from about 40 out, normally from a fairly good position.

Long-kicking midfielders who can penetrate the zone, or kick goals from outside 50 are also very important as you have said.


Gotta say, some great off-season discussion in this thread! Hats off to all

[mjp]

Murphy has become by and large 'predictable' with his forward entries and the opposition are a wake up to it. Playing on and kicking long to the 'hot spot' might get the ball inside 50 quickly (which is preferable), but if you pull the same move every time the opposing teams cotton on and then put in plans to counter this move.... which I feel has happened.

How are they countering it?

The only way you can counter a quick play-on is by getting numbers back...if the opposition are countering by doing that as you suggest then we have taken too long to get the ball to Murphy.

Is it possible to upload a short avi to this site of late 2nd quarter of the St Kilda game? It actually shows Murphy holding play up for what it is worth, but features both Johnson and Ward - both good kicks - kicking blindly inside 50m to a contested situation...but it shows all 36 players within 65m of our goal. Move the ball more quickly and this cannot happen. Further, once the 'flood' is on (and we do it as well) there are simply no leads to spot up - it is just good defending by the Saints - they really slowed us down from the outset and protected goal-side within the scoring zone.

The alternatives are run at the zone and have a shot on goal (which Johnson tries to do without success) or do as I suggested earlier. Oddly enough we nearly score after we turn the ball over - the Saints have to run forward to provide a target, we apply pressure and get the ball back and hey presto, there is 'space'. If not for Griffen's poor kick/lack of vision (take your pick) we would have had a set shot from 30m out directly in front.