NAB Cup - Other Teams Games

[Swoop]

An interesting tid bit - how are Freo going to get all of their rookies onto the senior list?

De Boer and Pearce both look the goods, Barlow had a great hit out yesterday, and young Van Berlo is also coming along in leaps and bounds. I'm actually pretty surprised that De Boer and Pearce weren't upgraded at the close of last season after both having fairly decent first years.

Not to mention Silvagni who held his own as well.

[comrade]

If the first round of NAB Cup action is anything to go by, we’ll be seeing a lot more mature age players picked up via the national and rookie draft.

Dennis-Lane, Jetta, Moles, Barlow and Silvagni all looked comfortable at the highest level (yell out if I’ve missed anyone glaring).

I hope our recruiting network stretches beyond the underage competitions and the VFL. A real focus must be placed on the SANFL and in particular the WAFL, or else we’re behind the eight ball to unearth some potential (and inexpensive) gems.

[Go_Dogs]

A real focus must be placed on the SANFL and in particular the WAFL, or else we’re behind the eight ball to unearth some potential (and inexpensive) gems.

Agreed.

If Alex Stopp has another great year for Norwood, he'll be one to add to that list (although I must admit I'm still a little astonished he didn't go last year).

[Go_Dogs]

Not to mention Silvagni who held his own as well.

Yep, missed him.

Geez they have drafted well over the past 2 years...now they just need to sort out their list management.

[LostDoggy]

I still cant see both Melbourne and Fremantle out of the bottom 4-5..

Even if Freo's forward line seems to have improved they did only play Melbourne..this was a pretty lackluster match (as expected) to finish off round 1 of the Nab Cup..

[mjp]

Ok for those who watched the Freo Melbourne game, cauld you tell me how Michael Barlow went......I dont have foxtel, and im spewin i missed his 1st game.......Was a huuuuugggeeee fan of his during his Werribee days....

He was OK. Seemed a bit slow on occasion and kicking not super...I wonder if he and Hasleby can play in the same side? Worked pretty hard though.

Melbourne are in real trouble. Completely overmatched. If their plan is to stick Liam Jurrah one-out in the forward 50m arc and hope for the best then they are destined for a lot of pain. They seem to have a few talented kids (Morton esp.) but they are kind of 'tweeners in basketball terms - not really on-ballers, not really kpp's. They might end up with a team of 190cm runners, but that is 2-3 years away...I can't see how Bailey survives based on last night.

Freo might end up being OK - Subi is an advantage for them and winning 6-7/12 home games (play west coast twice, so subi 12 times) is probably not out of the question.

[comrade]

Melbourne are in real trouble. Completely overmatched. If their plan is to stick Liam Jurrah one-out in the forward 50m arc and hope for the best then they are destined for a lot of pain.

Seeing him struggle with cramp all night must raise concerns regarding his ability to get through a full AFL season. He must have run less than 1km for the night.

[GVGjr]

I still cant see both Melbourne and Fremantle bottom 4-5..

Even if Freo's forward line seems to have improved they did only play Melbourne..this was a pretty lackluster match (as expected) to finish off round 1 of the Nab Cup..

Melbourne were shocking last night. They looked unfit and their skill level was non existent.

For a team that started their pre-season very early, they aren't in good shape.

[LostDoggy]

Melbourne were shocking last night. They looked unfit and their skill level was non existent.

For a team that started their pre-season very early, they aren't in good shape.

Still reckon this pressure on Bailey is a year too late. They didn't show anything at all for the entirety of the last two seasons -- I don't care if you're going for priority picks, two years is a bloody long time to actually not improve any aspect of your list and have what few 'stars' on your list look increasingly disillusioned and directionless (and then have the lot of them leave one way or another with a whimper). Hapless people and brand management, with the only bright spots (recruitment) gained through no merit on Bailey's part and actually due to being shite.

Melbourne has been going backwards at at rate of knots, and I think Bailey has been given a free ride for too long now and it's about time someone applied a blowtorch to his methods, whatever they are.

[Go_Dogs]

Melbourne has been going backwards at at rate of knots, and I think Bailey has been given a free ride for too long now and it's about time someone applied a blowtorch to his methods, whatever they are.

I'm under the impression that Bailey is very highly regarded for his work developing younger players, and given the shape and direction Melbourne are currently taking, and let's face it, will be continuing to take for the next few years, they are happy to have him on board.

I've got an interesting article from a Football Record where Bailey discusses (albeit in a pretty simplified way) his ideas on managing younger players, and he certainly seems to know what he's on about. Every young kid is going to be inconsistent, some will develop quickly, some will take a bit longer and some simply won't make it, so re-building from where they are is not exactly an easy task.

I still think it's probably a year or even 2 too early to judge him, but I guess we'll see what happens over the course of this season. They need to show some signs definitely, but expecting dramatic improvements based on a handful of kids aged 20 or less, would be like us basing our expectations on the likes of Cordy, Jones, Roughead, Howard and Tutt.

They've certainly drafted some kids with a great chance of making it, but like Cooney, and Griffen and Higgins and every high draft pick we've ever had, they take a few years to start to make a serious impact.

[LostDoggy]

Melbourne were shocking last night. They looked unfit and their skill level was non existent.

For a team that started their pre-season very early, they aren't in good shape.

Yeah I fixed my post I meant to say 'I cant see melbourne and freo out of the bottom 4'. Melbourne are looking just as bad as any other year if not worse..even if it is only the Nab Cup

[LostDoggy]

I'm under the impression that Bailey is very highly regarded for his work developing younger players, and given the shape and direction Melbourne are currently taking, and let's face it, will be continuing to take for the next few years, they are happy to have him on board.

I've got an interesting article from a Football Record where Bailey discusses (albeit in a pretty simplified way) his ideas on managing younger players, and he certainly seems to know what he's on about. Every young kid is going to be inconsistent, some will develop quickly, some will take a bit longer and some simply won't make it, so re-building from where they are is not exactly an easy task.

I still think it's probably a year or even 2 too early to judge him, but I guess we'll see what happens over the course of this season. They need to show some signs definitely, but expecting dramatic improvements based on a handful of kids aged 20 or less, would be like us basing our expectations on the likes of Cordy, Jones, Roughead, Howard and Tutt.

They've certainly drafted some kids with a great chance of making it, but like Cooney, and Griffen and Higgins and every high draft pick we've ever had, they take a few years to start to make a serious impact.

Hi Griffen#16, well-thought out post, thanks for your reply.

I don't doubt that Bailey brings some things to the table -- every one at that level bloody well better anyway -- but from what you've said he probably sounds like he would be better suited to a development position rather than head coach in any case.

There is FAR more to building a list (and selling your club) than just developing kids. As you've alluded to, kids are a hit-and-miss proposition anyway, which is precisely why it can't be the full monty when it comes to taking your club forward. Several teams have gone down the 'youth' route, most notably Hawthorn, but even in the depths of their 'bottoming out' period, they showed a lot of development, especially in the areas of physical competitiveness and learning a game plan. They also had a clear plan for their seniors such as Crawford. Essendon, too, have gone down a 'youth'-oriented path with Knights but are nowhere as dire as Melbourne are despite a similar starting position, because they've balanced it with a recruitment and senior player management strategy to back the kids up, and they are also playing to a clear tactical philosophy (for better or worse). Rocket also did this when he first took over, by teaching the players how to play one-on-one, then developing a running game around the (then) list's strengths. West Coast and Adelaide started rebuilding later than Melbourne but have zoomed through their development cycles pretty quickly and are back on the up with kids recruited in the past two to three years.

With Melbourne, apart from taking the best draft picks available (again, no credit due to Bailey for this apart from so-called tanking), there has been no discernible direction in any other department. The treatment of their senior players and veterans has been deplorable, so much so that their favourite sons have just been retired unceremoniously, dropped back into the VFL until they disappear, or left to rot on the injury table until they are nearly begging to get traded, all in a bid for priority/early picks. There has been absolutely no sense of a coherent game plan for the best part of two years, chopping and changing from one week to the next -- it's basically a Dr.Frankenstein version of a traditional structure, except with absolutely no personnel for those positions. The only bright spot in 24 months has been an inspired cameo by Jurrah for two quarters last year.

This is without even taking into account that the best development environment for a kid is actually a successful environment (or at least a balanced list), one where you are surrounded by hardened, success-oriented senior players and veterans, which is what has made Joel Selwood and Callan Ward look so good in their first couple of years.

--

ps. The difference to Hawthorn, St. Kilda or the Dogs (examples of teams who have benefited from 'bottoming out' to some extent), is the complete lack of a balanced playing group at Melbourne to give the kids time to develop -- Hawthorn had Crawf and others (recruited Dew and Croad), the Saints had Gehrig and Harvey et al for a while, and the Dogs had Johnno, Grant, Smith, West and a whole bunch of players from the 1999 draft (Murph et al) to fill out the list. Melbourne have absolutely zero quality apart from their early draft picks, so unless Bailey is aiming to bottom out for the next six years and shoot for a premiership in 2020 I have no idea what he's doing -- it's almost like he's taken the most simplistic version of a fashionable philosophy (play the kids!) and stuck to it to the exclusion of every other principle of building a successful club, most notably HOPE.

[boydogs]

Nice post Lantern as always

...and stuck to it to the exclusion of every other principle of building a successful club, most notably HOPE.

Please explain?

[Go_Dogs]

Hi Griffen#16, well-thought out post, thanks for your reply.

I don't doubt that Bailey brings some things to the table -- every one at that level bloody well better anyway -- but from what you've said he probably sounds like he would be better suited to a development position rather than head coach in any case.

This could well be the case. I actually had written in my post - "perhaps he's not a senior coach though" but decided to remove it. Yes, his strengths perhaps lie with developing younger players, as a lot of his experience comes from doing so, but at the same time he's worked at Essendon and Port Adelaide, and as such has studied under some pretty successful coaches. At the end of the day, he has a team of experts to assist him, but I guess the buck does stop with Bailey.

They also had a clear plan for their seniors such as Crawford. Essendon, too, have gone down a 'youth'-oriented path with Knights but are nowhere as dire as Melbourne are despite a similar starting position, because they've balanced it with a recruitment and senior player management strategy to back the kids up, and they are also playing to a clear tactical philosophy (for better or worse). Rocket also did this when he first took over, by teaching the players how to play one-on-one, then developing a running game around the (then) list's strengths. West Coast and Adelaide started rebuilding later than Melbourne but have zoomed through their development cycles pretty quickly and are back on the up with kids recruited in the past two to three years.

The issue I have with the shape of Melbourne's list, is that all of their senior and established players are pretty useless. As it stands, they have Cameron Bruce, Brad Green and James McDonald as their senior players. Hardly an inspiring bunch, and their 24-28 bracket doesn't fair much better. Inheriting a list as shot as theirs is an unenviable task in my opinion. Essendon still had Lloyd, Lucas, Fletcher, recruited Mal Michael etc. They also have a more consistent bunch of 24-28 year olds, including McVeigh, Watson etc.

As far as Adelaide and West Coast go, well Adelaide haven't really re-built. They've drafted a few kids, but they are still heavily reliant on the old hands of Goodwin, Edwards, McLeod, Burton, and Doughty. The only player they've acquired through a trade in recent history is Brad Symes, and he's hardly set the world on fire. They've certainly had better development out of guys like Tippett and Knights, but Bailey can hardly be blamed for the stalled development of Sylvia and Bate, both guys who had fairly good years last year anyway and appear on the way up (finally!), and those are the players who should have been dictating their improvement at this stage. Melbourne have recruited MacDonald this year too, who should add some improvement to their side, so they aren't oblivious to the requirement to recruit senior players.

West Coast are a different kettle of fish, as they have just drafted and developed players at a rate unequalled by any other side. Even when they were the top dog in 2005 and 2006, they were developing a bunch of quality kids including Hurn, Le Cras and a few others. They have then received a whole bunch of very high draft picks, but have still dipped down the ladder for a few years - even with half the side being premiership players and the other half being fairly high draft selections. If they'd finished top 4 the past few years, I'd agree - but in reality they haven't come THAT far since they started their re-building. This year should be another step up, but that's because of very successful recruiting and development of players that has been going on for a while. They did top up with a couple of ready made players like Priddis, who have provided some short term relief, but I'm not convinced such a player will play a large role in them taking the next step. Melbourne haven't really gone for the Priddis type, and don't have a core of premiership players.

There has been absolutely no sense of a coherent game plan for the best part of two years, chopping and changing from one week to the next -- it's basically a Dr.Frankenstein version of a traditional structure, except with absolutely no personnel for those positions. The only bright spot in 24 months has been an inspired cameo by Jurrah for two quarters last year.

I honestly have not watched enough of Melbourne to comment on the intricacies of their game plan, so you could well be spot on here. The cattle aren't flash, and I have no idea what sort of game plan would suit them. I do quite like the game plan we utilised with a young list - play on, take them on, and Essendon are doing the same now. You will win some games, and get thumped by the sides with a harder edge, but at least you are developing the offensive weaponry required to win a flag. The defensive/contested side will develop as players get stronger, fitter and have more confidence in their bodies. It will be interesting to see how they go about it this year. You don't want them to get thumped every week taking the game on, but at the same time you don't want to put the clamps on young players attacking flair. It's a balancing act.

This is without even taking into account that the best development environment for a kid is actually a successful environment (or at least a balanced list), one where you are surrounded by hardened, success-oriented senior players and veterans, which is what has made Joel Selwood and Callan Ward look so good in their first couple of years.

No disputing that a successful environment and team makes the transition easier for younger kids. But not sure there is a lot Bailey can do to improve the quality of the list in the short term. Yes, he could have gone the Brisbane route and tried to recruit a bunch of recycled players and look for some short term gain, (and perhaps with the FA and GC/GWS concessions coming up it might not have been a bad idea, but that's a whole different debate), but he still needs to develop the core of a premiership contender internally.

--

ps. The difference to Hawthorn, St. Kilda or the Dogs (examples of teams who have benefited from 'bottoming out' to some extent), is the complete lack of a balanced playing group at Melbourne to give the kids time to develop -- Hawthorn had Crawf and others (recruited Dew and Croad), the Saints had Gehrig and Harvey et al for a while, and the Dogs had Johnno, Grant, Smith, West and a whole bunch of players from the 1999 draft (Murph et al) to fill out the list. Melbourne have absolutely zero quality apart from their early draft picks, so unless Bailey is aiming to bottom out for the next six years and shoot for a premiership in 2020 I have no idea what he's doing -- it's almost like he's taken the most simplistic version of a fashionable philosophy (play the kids!) and stuck to it to the exclusion of every other principle of building a successful club, most notably HOPE.

Perhaps now that he has a quality core, they'll look for more ready made players over the next few years. I actually think most teams will do this, as the draft will be ravaged. So by 2013 he could have some premier on-ballers, Watts hitting his straps and a few ready made recruits to plug the holes and be challenging for the flag. Certainly not an easy task, and perhaps not entirely plausible, but still possible.

Bolded text.

Good discussion

[LostDoggy]

Carlton 14.9 (93) def Brisbane 12.8 (80) @ Visy Park, Friday

'The big spearhead (Fevola) didn’t have the best of days - he kicked two goals from six shots and took just two marks - with opponent Michael Jamison generally getting the better of him on the rare occasions when the Lions were able to isolate the pair.'

Surprised they played him in the Nab Challenge instead of waiting for round 2..wanted to get it out of the way I guess.