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  1. #16
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    Re: Questions mounting at Whitten Oval

    Quote Originally Posted by Lantern View Post
    Genuine question: do you think senior coach salaries are related to experience or to supply and demand? A coach in demand will command a higher salary, a coach on the scrapheap (or a first-time punt) will command a lower salary, regardless of experience, surely. I would imagine that performance bonuses and renegotiations/extensions after good performance knocks a coach's salary up, not simply experience.

    I would also argue that no coach is being paid below his market value -- a good coach being severely underpaid would be poached sooner rather than later.
    A coach who's had previous experience who wasn't an abject failure will command more than an untried coach regardless of who turns out to be better. It's the same in every industry, an untried manager in a bank who gets a promotion into the role will command a lower salary than an experienced manager brought in from somewhere else. if the untried coach proves to be a success then their next contract is on significantly improved terms (eg Clarkson at Hawthorn), does that mean they're suddenly a better coach? No, it means they're being paid in accordance with their experience.

    Supply and demand comes into it because there's only a finite pool of experienced candidates to draw upon and not everyone is prepared to give a rookie a chance.
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  2. #17
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    Re: Questions mounting at Whitten Oval

    Quote Originally Posted by Greystache View Post
    A coach who's had previous experience who wasn't an abject failure will command more than an untried coach regardless of who turns out to be better. It's the same in every industry, an untried manager in a bank who gets a promotion into the role will command a lower salary than an experienced manager brought in from somewhere else. if the untried coach proves to be a success then their next contract is on significantly improved terms (eg Clarkson at Hawthorn), does that mean they're suddenly a better coach? No, it means they're being paid in accordance with their experience.
    Agree with this.

    Hopefully we don't allow money to dictate which way we go.

  3. #18
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    Re: Questions mounting at Whitten Oval

    Quote Originally Posted by Greystache View Post
    We chose Rhode because he was cheap and we were slashing footy department spending. No one is suggesting we do that, the suggstion is spreading money wider in the coaching department on more/better credentialed assistants rather than investing a large chunk of it on an experienced senior coach who may or may not do a better job
    Thanks Greystache, you understood what I was suggesting.

  4. #19
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    Re: Questions mounting at Whitten Oval

    Quote Originally Posted by Greystache View Post
    if the untried coach proves to be a success then their next contract is on significantly improved terms (eg Clarkson at Hawthorn), does that mean they're suddenly a better coach? No, it means they're being paid in accordance with their experience.
    .
    No it doesn't. It means that they're being paid in accordance with their success. A coach that is proven to be shite after three years isn't going to be paid more because he's more experienced. The reason Clarkson gets more in his second contract is because he's proven to be a GOOD coach, not just because he's more experienced. Heck, there are coaches that take pay cuts with contract extensions because they haven't met performance indicators.

    Market factors also come into play -- if Hawthorn hadn't offered Clarkson a contract to his satisfaction there would have been no shortage of suitors.

  5. #20
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    Re: Questions mounting at Whitten Oval

    Quote Originally Posted by Lantern View Post
    No it doesn't. It means that they're being paid in accordance with their success. A coach that is proven to be shite after three years isn't going to be paid more because he's more experienced. The reason Clarkson gets more in his second contract is because he's proven to be a GOOD coach, not just because he's more experienced. Heck, there are coaches that take pay cuts with contract extensions because they haven't met performance indicators.
    That means Rocket will be cheaper this time around
    FFC: Established 1883

    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

  6. #21
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    Re: Questions mounting at Whitten Oval

    Quote Originally Posted by Greystache View Post
    Supply and demand comes into it because there's only a finite pool of experienced candidates to draw upon and not everyone is prepared to give a rookie a chance.
    As I mentioned above, though, are we a club that can take that chance knowing that it could very well turn out to be a failure? Can we survive another Rohde era in this cutthroat environment with new clubs and free agency coming in? Port may well go to the wall in the next couple of years with little to play for, we aren't that far behind financially. Make a mistake here, and we could very well be signing our death sentence.

    The cowboy in me would love nothing more than to go for an untried coach and hope that he turns out to be the second coming of Barass, but if we can't attract good senior coaches, we won't be attracting good assistants either.

  7. #22
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    Re: Questions mounting at Whitten Oval

    Quote Originally Posted by Desipura View Post
    Skimping on Assistants is penny wise and foolish as well.
    Assistants play a key role more so these days.
    Would Eade allow an experienced assistant coach come and take "more of the load" and give up some of his responsibility?

    I would like to think he would, but Im unsure.

  8. #23
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    Re: Questions mounting at Whitten Oval

    Quote Originally Posted by azabob View Post
    Would Eade allow an experienced assistant coach come and take "more of the load" and give up some of his responsibility?

    I would like to think he would, but Im unsure.
    If we were to get an experienced Assistant, I would think we would not be able to afford Eade as well.

  9. #24
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    Re: Questions mounting at Whitten Oval

    Quote Originally Posted by bornadog View Post
    That means Rocket will be cheaper this time around
    If there wasn't Adelaide and Melbourne on the horizon, his currency was shot, and he was still desperate to coach, and we decide to keep him, then surely yes, a "pay cut" would not be out of the realms of possibility. The way it would be structured would probably be to word his contract with a greater percentage of his pay being performance-based, so that he COULD still earn himself the same amount if the team improves or performs. Doesn't happen very often because usually clubs just start afresh.

  10. #25
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    Re: Questions mounting at Whitten Oval

    Quote Originally Posted by Lantern View Post
    ps. I'm not saying that an untried coach will not be better than Eade, but there's a reason untried coach's are paid less than a proven coach -- it's basically a risk discount. Are we the type of club that can take the risk of another debacle like Rohde? Would we survive an untried coach turning out to be shite? Of course he may turn out to be great, but it's a gamble and I'm not sure we're the right kind of club to be trying that kind of gamble.
    That's an all together different discussion. The Rhode debacle can't be blamed on anyone but the club itself, he wasn't an unknown gamble, he was already at the club, if we couldnt tell he was inept already then that's our fault. I don't think the club thought he'd be a good coach, it was simply about hiring the cheapest option. Rose was on a mission to cut costs, Rhode just happened to be there, he also realised after 2 years if you can't win a game then it's going to cost the club more than just a higher footy department wage bill.

    We're a club that takes the conservative option, always have, and most likely always will. We've had 6 coaches in the past 27 years, only one was an untried coach from outside the club (Malthouse), 2 have been experienced coaches sacked by other clubs (Joyce and Eade), and 3 have been untried coaches promoted internally. Never do we chase a well credentialed outsider who could be the next big name, nor do we headhunt a coach in demand.

    Eade's a decent coach, he's got teams into finals pretty regularly, but he's coached 13 seasons for one Grand Final (in his first season) and a finals record of 1 win from 11 games against top four teams. He is certainly not a great coach.
    Western Bulldogs: We exist to win premierships

  11. #26
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    Re: Questions mounting at Whitten Oval

    Quote Originally Posted by Lantern View Post
    ps. I'm not saying that an untried coach will not be better than Eade, but there's a reason untried coach's are paid less than a proven coach -- it's basically a risk discount. Are we the type of club that can take the risk of another debacle like Rohde? Would we survive an untried coach turning out to be shite? Of course he may turn out to be great, but it's a gamble and I'm not sure we're the right kind of club to be trying that kind of gamble.
    Why keep quoting Rhode. We also gave Mick Malthouse his start. Lets not get into a defensive frame of mind. We should be bold. I think Smorgon has the wits to assess the character of the man, are Garlick, Fantasia up to a sharp assessment of coaching credentials or should we have Leigh Matthews on the selection panel if Rocket is not reappointed?
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  12. #27
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    Re: Questions mounting at Whitten Oval

    Is it a case of boys mentality here? Can we make the right choices without external assistance? If Leigh Mat is able to be on hand, we would be mad not to ask for his advice.
    You don't develop courage by being happy in your relationships every day. You develop it by surviving difficult times and challenging adversity. ― Epicurus

  13. #28
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    Re: Questions mounting at Whitten Oval

    Quote Originally Posted by Lantern View Post
    If there wasn't Adelaide and Melbourne on the horizon, his currency was shot, and he was still desperate to coach, and we decide to keep him, then surely yes, a "pay cut" would not be out of the realms of possibility. The way it would be structured would probably be to word his contract with a greater percentage of his pay being performance-based, so that he COULD still earn himself the same amount if the team improves or performs. Doesn't happen very often because usually clubs just start afresh.
    This paragraph from today's news about Voss's contract extension would be the exact scenario I painted above:

    Brisbane Lions coach Michael Voss is believed to be nearing an end to protracted talks with the club.

    Although both parties unofficially agreed in theory some weeks ago to a two-year contract extension for Voss, a number of contractual sticking points have delayed a final decision.

    Voss's manager Peter Blucher last night refused to discuss the disputed areas of Voss's original contract offer which is understood to have included a number of performance clauses.


    (Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-new...#ixzz1V9Ayy4bQ)


    You don't get paid more just for 'experience'.

  14. #29
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    Re: Questions mounting at Whitten Oval

    Quote Originally Posted by the banker View Post
    Why keep quoting Rhode. We also gave Mick Malthouse his start. Lets not get into a defensive frame of mind. We should be bold. I think Smorgon has the wits to assess the character of the man, are Garlick, Fantasia up to a sharp assessment of coaching credentials or should we have Leigh Matthews on the selection panel if Rocket is not reappointed?
    And how did the Malthouse reign at the Dogs end? Not exactly an unqualified success was it? It's like we have such short memories, and those of us who don't learn from our mistakes are doomed to repeat them. Also, Malthouse happened back in the '80s when it was the VFL and the world (nevermind footy) was a completely different place. It was also in an era that nearly took us to the wall and needed a tin rattling fundraiser that I hope I never see again.

    Rohde is the most recent example of what could happen to the Dogs if we take a cheap punt and lose -- we essentially wasted three prime years of one of the best groups of top end players we've ever had (Granty, West, Darcy, Johnno, Smith et al. -- a better coach would have extracted what Lyon has been able to extract from his top 6 at St. Kilda over the last couple of years). Primus is another example, albeit from a different club.

    I'm not saying that we shouldn't go for an 'untried' coach (most aspiring first-time coaches have impressive assistant coach CVs, and I mentioned Lyon above), but there is a way to go about this, and being last in line and paying peanuts isn't it. Boldness is one thing, being slow and cheap another thing altogether.
    Last edited by LostDoggy; 16-08-2011 at 10:58 AM.

  15. #30
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    Re: Questions mounting at Whitten Oval

    Quote Originally Posted by Greystache View Post
    A coach who's had previous experience who wasn't an abject failure will command more than an untried coach regardless of who turns out to be better. It's the same in every industry, an untried manager in a bank who gets a promotion into the role will command a lower salary than an experienced manager brought in from somewhere else..
    I don't think this is the right analogy -- a senior coach isn't simply a middle manager that companies can take punts on and pay accordingly. It is the most important job in an AFL club -- akin to a CEO in a Fortune 500 (or a Silicon Valley) company (I know AFL clubs have "CEOs" but you know what I mean).

    A wrong appointment can be fatal; history isn't kind to mistakes, and there are plenty of companies out there who have gone to the wall (or lost billions) after appointing the wrong person to the top job. In an era of free agency, expansion teams, 150 point beltings and a widening rich-poor gap, the recent reactiveness of our club doesn't fill me with much confidence that we can really compete with more proactive clubs on the cutting edge. Our equivalent of losing billions would leave us far behind the curve competitively, and we can kiss our premiership chances goodbye and settle for a couple of decades of being whatever North has been for the last 10 years.

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