Teams Round 21 v Essendon

[bornadog]

Hi BAD, it's an interesting point you bring up re: posters vs. the MC, and I would agree with you that your general point is valid -- they are full-time professionals and of course would have a generally greater grasp of the game than us part-time punters (although the amount of time some of us spend on WOOF and our Supercoach teams we may as well be full-time!).

However, the conclusion you draw that an assertion made by the MC must be more right than a regular punter's opinion is not one you can make from the above information -- it's a common logical fallacy called 'arguing from authority'. I'll just post a definition of the fallacy: (argumentum ad verecundiam) Appeals to authority are always deductively fallacious; even a legitimate authority speaking on his area of expertise may affirm a falsehood, so no testimony of any authority is guaranteed to be true.

(It just means that an expert should not be assumed to be right simply because he's an expert -- the statement being right or wrong has to stand on its own.)

I would suggest that some areas that a 'regular punter' may have an advantage over the MC is perhaps in having more objectivity about individual players than the MC (who after all spend a lot of time with these players and may develop subjective views about them -- only natural to have 'favourites' etc.), having no political or personal agendas that may cloud decisions over players, not having to deal with the internal relationships between MC members, or between the MC and individual players, that may guide decisions etc. (We've all worked at places where the internal pressures become so great and you are staring at the same facts day in day out to the point that you can't really see the big picture anymore.) Just saying!

Long explanation in relation to Topdog saying my post was really really silly.

God help our team when we start to listen to internet posters on who should be picked and who shouldn't.

Lets see - of the current team, over the years we have heard: (the ones I can remember)

*Hargrave - no good - that was a few years ago.
* Gia - no good, soft - despite being the top goal scorer last year. He has now proven everyone wrong
* Higgins should be traded
* Barlow a spud
* DJ needs handles on the ball then he will become a footballer
* Stack useless, can't make a decision, blamed for losing us the game
* The Beard - gone, can't ruck anymore why isn't Roughead number one
* Hooper to small no attributes should never get a game.
* Mulligan no good
* Boyd and Cross too loose - drop them
* Markovic to slow
* Sherman - bad recruit, has done nothing (despite before his indiscretion being 9th of 600 players in score assists)
* Vez and Tutt should be playing (called early in the season even when no form at VFL level)

At this rate we don't have a team.

Its great to have an opinion on who should and shouldn't be picked but to be slagging off the MC time and again because they didn't pick a player or drop a player the posters wanted is to me a little silly and then to say the posters are better than the MC.

[LostDoggy]

*Hargrave - no good - that was a few years ago.
* Gia - no good, soft - despite being the top goal scorer last year. He has now proven everyone wrong
* Higgins should be traded
* Barlow a spud
* DJ needs handles on the ball then he will become a footballer
* Stack useless, can't make a decision, blamed for losing us the game
* The Beard - gone, can't ruck anymore why isn't Roughead number one
* Hooper to small no attributes should never get a game.
* Mulligan no good
* Boyd and Cross too loose - drop them
* Markovic to slow
* Sherman - bad recruit, has done nothing (despite before his indiscretion being 9th of 600 players in score assists)
* Vez and Tutt should be playing (called early in the season even when no form at VFL level)

At this rate we don't have a team.
.

Haha I'm on your side but the list you just put up kinda wrecks your case -- that's a team alright, just not a very good one! (with apologies to the obvious exceptions)

But yes, your original point was valid -- we are far too quick to write some players off (but on the other hand, let's also be honest about some of the limitations of our playing list). I think it's a question of how we say some things -- "Stack at this rate is not an AFL player for x reasons" is more constructive than "Stack is s**t".

[Happy Days]

Long explanation in relation to Topdog saying my post was really really silly.

God help our team when we start to listen to internet posters on who should be picked and who shouldn't.

Lets see - of the current team, over the years we have heard: (the ones I can remember)

*Hargrave - no good - that was a few years ago.
* Gia - no good, soft - despite being the top goal scorer last year. He has now proven everyone wrong
* Higgins should be traded
* Barlow a spud
* DJ needs handles on the ball then he will become a footballer
* Stack useless, can't make a decision, blamed for losing us the game
* The Beard - gone, can't ruck anymore why isn't Roughead number one
* Hooper to small no attributes should never get a game.
* Mulligan no good
* Boyd and Cross too loose - drop them
* Markovic to slow
* Sherman - bad recruit, has done nothing (despite before his indiscretion being 9th of 600 players in score assists)
* Vez and Tutt should be playing (called early in the season even when no form at VFL level)

At this rate we don't have a team.

Its great to have an opinion on who should and shouldn't be picked but to be slagging off the MC time and again because they didn't pick a player or drop a player the posters wanted is to me a little silly and then to say the posters are better than the MC.

When you list all the critiques like that, it looks ridiculous, but it doesn't change the fact that a lot of them are valid.

*Barlow is a spud
*DJ does fumble the ball
*Hudson's days as a number one ruckman are over, or very close to
*Mulligan is no good
*Hooper doesn't really offer anything
*Stack does make bad decisions

Not all of the criticism I read on here is correct (in my opinion anyway), but to just dismiss it all as uninformed is too dismissive. You can't say the MC have been without fault this year either.

[bornadog]

Haha I'm on your side but the list you just put up kinda wrecks your case -- that's a team alright, just not a very good one! (with apologies to the obvious exceptions)

But yes, your original point was valid -- we are far too quick to write some players off, (but let's also be honest about some of the limitations of our playing list).

True, A lot of those inexperienced players may not make it, but if you go back to the posts I was discussing young players, all I was saying was when the MC doesn't play young players they are criticized, when the MC does play young guys, those players are bagged because they don't perform. The argument then came back - but the MC played the wrong young players. My answer is if they are on the list and showing form at VFL then why shouldn't they play. Plus, you can't write players off after a hand full of games.

[Desipura]

Gia has been very good up until a few weeks ago, he deserves his place in the team. Unfortunately his form in big finals is a stigma that sits with him and a lot of other senior players who are currently on our list or retired recently. Higgins, Gilbee, Johnson are some of the others, That will never change.
Griffen enhanced his reputation in finals and so did Ward to an extent which is why he will be missed if he leaves, he shows leadership potential IMHO due to this fact.

[AndrewP6]

Gia has been very good up until a few weeks ago, he deserves his place in the team. Unfortunately his form in big finals is a stigma that sits with him and a lot of other senior players who are currently on our list or retired recently.

No need to worry about that this year

[The Bulldogs Bite]

BAD regularly comes to the aid of the club/MC when others criticise. If they are blunt, ridiculous calls - fair enough. However, any detailed and reasoned post should be treated with merit and not contempt because we "aren't professionals". The implication that we know nothing and the MC know everything is incredibly silly and, for mine, highlights ones inability to stand back and view our club from an objective point of view. Lantern pointed it out well.

[bornadog]

BAD regularly comes to the aid of the club/MC when others criticise. If they are blunt, ridiculous calls - fair enough. However, any detailed and reasoned post should be treated with merit and not contempt because we "aren't professionals". The implication that we know nothing and the MC know everything is incredibly silly and, for mine, highlights ones inability to stand back and view our club from an objective point of view. Lantern pointed it out well.

and if you read my posts they are the ones I am talking about, of course I don't criticize posters if they have a detailed reasoned post. As I said we all have our opinions but to say posters know more than the MC about picking players well that has me stumped.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

and if you read my posts they are the ones I am talking about, of course I don't criticize posters if they have a detailed reasoned post. As I said we all have our opinions but to say posters know more than the MC about picking players well that has me stumped.

That's the thing though - nobody has said that. You were the one who discarded what any poster had to say about the MC because they were the 'experts'.

As noted, it doesn't make them right simply because they have an attached title to their name. If this was the case, no club would ever have to replace 'em.

[Mantis]

TBB has put up some reasoned reponses and just because he doesn't agree with you or the MC it doesn't make him wrong.

[bornadog]

TBB has put up some reasoned reponses and just because he doesn't agree with you or the MC it doesn't make him wrong.

Where did I say he was wrong?

I was just responding to this:

Fact is, the MC have been pathetic for the past 2-3 years and whilst we have blooded youth this season, possible key players haven't got enough game time.

We made PF's, but you're absolutely blind if you believe the MC did such a good job. This forum was very critical of our choices (or lack of) last year.

I am bored with the conversation and can't be bothered reading and responding to the same old things.