The who do we want and what will it take thread

[azabob]

I think you'll find that Mumford was Geelong's first choice ruckman the year before they lost him. He was well ahead of Blake and West and Ottens could barely get on the park. They just simply couldn't afford him.

From my memory, they dropped Mumford for the finals and played Blake.

[LostDoggy]

Disagree, he will be a more than serviceable forward. Not a superstar but a good KPF. More than happy to persist with Grant and Jones though.

What is this assessment based on? Two weeks of strong marking? Against our undermanned defence and Essendon's injured one? He's been kicking straight-ish, but form is temporary, class is permanent -- this guy has been kicking more behinds than goals over a long time, and was an absolute dud this year in the SANFL. In cricketing parlance, you may be able to play above your average for a couple of months but unless something has radically changed, you'll be back down at your average soon enough. Marcus North comes to mind.

I'm not writing him off at all, but to call him ANYTHING (much less a 'good KPF') after 3 senior games is crazy talk. Everitt was going to be the next Kouta after his first three games. Lots of first year superstars disappear very quickly. The media lives and dies on hype, but serious football analysts should at least wait to watch him do it for half a season, maybe against a couple of top sides (a shocking idea I know) before calling him the next big thing.

And do you think that he's worth the types of figures being thrown about this week (2 first round picks etc.)? Him being the 'hot property' of the moment is to me more an indication of how footy in Melbourne is largely a cottage industry where fads get picked up on quickly, rather than any deep analysis of Butcher's long-term future.

[Dancin' Douggy]

What is this assessment based on? Two weeks of strong marking? Against our undermanned defence and Essendon's injured one? He's been kicking straight-ish, but form is temporary, class is permanent -- this guy has been kicking more behinds than goals over a long time, and was an absolute dud this year in the SANFL. In cricketing parlance, you may be able to play above your average for a couple of months but unless something has radically changed, you'll be back down at your average soon enough. Marcus North comes to mind.

I'm not writing him off at all, but to call him ANYTHING (much less a 'good KPF') after 3 senior games is crazy talk. Everitt was going to be the next Kouta after his first three games. Lots of first year superstars disappear very quickly. The media lives and dies on hype, but serious football analysts should at least wait to watch him do it for half a season, maybe against a couple of top sides (a shocking idea I know) before calling him the next big thing.

And do you think that he's worth the types of figures being thrown about this week (2 first round picks etc.)? Him being the 'hot property' of the moment is to me more an indication of how footy in Melbourne is largely a cottage industry where fads get picked up on quickly, rather than any deep analysis of Butcher's long-term future.

Bloody oath.

[Greystache]

What is this assessment based on? Two weeks of strong marking? Against our undermanned defence and Essendon's injured one? He's been kicking straight-ish, but form is temporary, class is permanent -- this guy has been kicking more behinds than goals over a long time, and was an absolute dud this year in the SANFL. In cricketing parlance, you may be able to play above your average for a couple of months but unless something has radically changed, you'll be back down at your average soon enough. Marcus North comes to mind.

I'm not writing him off at all, but to call him ANYTHING (much less a 'good KPF') after 3 senior games is crazy talk. Everitt was going to be the next Kouta after his first three games. Lots of first year superstars disappear very quickly. The media lives and dies on hype, but serious football analysts should at least wait to watch him do it for half a season, maybe against a couple of top sides (a shocking idea I know) before calling him the next big thing.

And do you think that he's worth the types of figures being thrown about this week (2 first round picks etc.)? Him being the 'hot property' of the moment is to me more an indication of how footy in Melbourne is largely a cottage industry where fads get picked up on quickly, rather than any deep analysis of Butcher's long-term future.

Essendon's defence wasn't injured, he played on both Pears and Hooker. Hurley and Carlisle even played forward because they had so many tall defenders. The only player who didn't play was Fletcher who's only a loose man in defence anyway.

[LostDoggy]

Essendon's defence wasn't injured, he played on both Pears and Hooker. Hurley and Carlisle even played forward because they had so many tall defenders. The only player who didn't play was Fletcher who's only a loose man in defence anyway.

All fair points. Still, one swallow does not a summer make, wouldn't you agree?

[Greystache]

All fair points. Still, one swallow does not a summer make, wouldn't you agree?

Agree entirely.

Still, I watched him closely on the weekend and I think he has huge upside. Although him and Jones in the same side would have limitations, neither lead particularly well and are both pack marks, plus they're both pretty ordinary kicks.

[Sedat]

Hamish McIntosh is North's problem. His achilles will never be 100%, he is one of the highest players on their list and he still has time to run on a big contract. We should go after Majak instead, much the same way Sydney did with Mumford by guaranteeing him more opportunities. Majak has improved immeasurably this season (much more than North ever thought possible) and is absolutely ready for senior action. He won't be seeing too much of that with Goldy, McIntosh and Petrie ahead of him at Norf. We need athletisicm in our ruck dept and Daw fills that need.

[LostDoggy]

Agree entirely.

Still, I watched him closely on the weekend and I think he has huge upside. Although him and Jones in the same side would have limitations, neither lead particularly well and are both pack marks, plus they're both pretty ordinary kicks.

Does Butcher chase? What's his tackling like? In the game against the Dogs he only had 6 kicks (yes they were all goals) but that's 1990s football: mark, kick goal, stand around. mark, kick goal, stand around.

[LostDoggy]

We need athletisicm in our ruck dept and Daw fills that need.

Interesting! I keep hearing reservations about Majak though. Is he basically NicNat-lite?

[Greystache]

Does Butcher chase? What's his tackling like? In the game against the Dogs he only had 6 kicks (yes they were all goals) but that's 1990s football: mark, kick goal, stand around. mark, kick goal, stand around.

He did, his tackling didn't stand out, but Port have a heap of players in the Higgins mould, they make a token effort of pressuring which allows the ball to get out easily and makes players actually trying ineffective- Robbie Gray case in point.

He gets few possessions because he can only take contested marks, if he can develop his leading skilks he'll start getting a lot more of it. He looks fairly quick for a big guy.

[Topdog]

What is this assessment based on? Two weeks of strong marking? Against our undermanned defence and Essendon's injured one? He's been kicking straight-ish, but form is temporary, class is permanent -- this guy has been kicking more behinds than goals over a long time, and was an absolute dud this year in the SANFL. In cricketing parlance, you may be able to play above your average for a couple of months but unless something has radically changed, you'll be back down at your average soon enough. Marcus North comes to mind.

I'm not writing him off at all, but to call him ANYTHING (much less a 'good KPF') after 3 senior games is crazy talk. Everitt was going to be the next Kouta after his first three games. Lots of first year superstars disappear very quickly. The media lives and dies on hype, but serious football analysts should at least wait to watch him do it for half a season, maybe against a couple of top sides (a shocking idea I know) before calling him the next big thing.

And do you think that he's worth the types of figures being thrown about this week (2 first round picks etc.)? Him being the 'hot property' of the moment is to me more an indication of how footy in Melbourne is largely a cottage industry where fads get picked up on quickly, rather than any deep analysis of Butcher's long-term future.

Based on everything I have seen of him. I've watched all 3 of his games closely and he has looked very good for a young player. Also looks like he will have his limitations as well.

A good KPF isn't even close to calling someone the next Kouta.

From everything I have seen his stats in the SANFL are far from terrible. 17 goals 11 behinds in 10 games in an injury interrupted year.

I don't pay any attention to what the nuffies in the media say so I have no idea what figures have been thrown around. 2 first round picks is the height of stupidity though. Mortgaging your future on someone who has shown a bit is silly.

[LostDoggy]

Our number 1 ruck position is going to be of huge concern next year, Hudson's gone, Minson's a spud and Roughy and Cordy are not ready. I would happily trade our compo pick for Ward for him(McIntosh would also help out with that second tall forward).

Very harsh on Minson. When has he been a spud, besides soygate, last year while he has played number 1 ruckman? Absolutely needed next year while Roughy and Cordy exchange KPP, second ruck and too injured to play roles.

Minson has been harshly dealt with by the club this year and 2009 in my opinion. Most poor perspective on him by people is because he was played out of position as a key forward. Deserved to be playing ahead opf Huddo on a number of occasions for better matchups and Huddo needing rest.

[Mofra]

Interesting! I keep hearing reservations about Majak though. Is he basically NicNat-lite?

Has an awesome highlights reel, but doesn't seem to get enough of the ball or do the bread and butter type stuff that made Hudson so good.

I don't think trading for a ruckman should be our no 1 priority at the trade table this year. If we can't cobble together an effective ruck combo between Minson, Roughy, Ayce and perhaps Tommy & Jones to pinch hit occasionally, we've picked the worng coach.

[mjp]

If we can't cobble together an effective ruck combo...

Caveat: We need to recruit one this year.

I actually think we should recruit one every year...if they work out, AWESOME - keep or trade (always in demand). If not, there is another one on the way in 12-months and minimal investment required.

Compare it to pitchers in baseball - it is the one specialist position remaining and you have got to have a farm system!

[LostDoggy]

Caveat: We need to recruit one this year.

I actually think we should recruit one every year...if they work out, AWESOME - keep or trade (always in demand). If not, there is another one on the way in 12-months and minimal investment required.

Compare it to pitchers in baseball - it is the one specialist position remaining and you have got to have a farm system!

Agree, you can never have to many top shelf ruckmen.