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26-03-2023, 05:42 PM
#136
Re: Sharp Axes
Originally Posted by
Stevo
There are innovators and imitators and you are clearly have a knack and an eye for detail.
Ha, just not important detail
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26-03-2023, 06:54 PM
#137
Re: Sharp Axes
Originally Posted by
SonofScray
We need to see Arty when he is ready. Need his enthusiasm.
I get it. But when we 'NEED' the input of a 2nd year player who is yet to debut, I do wonder if we are thinking clearly right now.
Dreamers pick kids.
If there is going to be a change in our fortunes, that change comes from Bont, Naughts, Macrae, Jones, Keath, Daniel, Liber etc - it comes from our senior players, our BEST players. I'm not saying don't give Jones a chance - sure, whatever...but any meaningful change to the current outcomes isn't going to come because Jones is declared fit and the MC decided to immediately pick him. TBH - if he is fit he should 100% play VFL and probs for 2-3 weeks (at least)...he's just missed 3x weeks for goodness sake and it will be 4 by the time next weekend rolls around.
Playing better is the solution. Not plucking kids and depending on them to create some excitement!
What should I tell her? She's going to ask.
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26-03-2023, 07:49 PM
#138
Re: Sharp Axes
Originally Posted by
SonofScray
My question, I suppose is, at what point are you going to step across from backing, to sacking Bevo? If at all?
A week ago this question seemed to me not worth contemplating, but a week's a long time in footy!
That game last night was nothing short of diabolical. We've all put in our two cents on where our shortcomings are, and based on last night all of those views are 100% true - where do our problems lie?
Well the midfield can't win centre clearances, the whole side's getting outworked on the spread, we're not getting numbers to the contest either, our forwards can't take a grab, we don't have any genuine small forwards, our defenders can't hit targets, we have players going through the midfield rotations who can't find the football, we employ a listless zone, we're not fit enough, the team is too slow, the effort isn't there etc. etc. etc.
I mean... based on last night it's all true. There are a lot of issues and I have no expectation that they can be fixed in five days. That would then give us a 0-3 start to the season with Richmond and Port Adelaide to play in the following weeks. The most likely outcome to me is that we end up 1-4, but 0-5 is pretty likely too.
Our season won't survive that kind of start, and Bevo won't survive a 2023 season where we miss the eight. He's the best coach we've ever had, but all good things must come to an end. Beyond 2023 we're in rebuild territory regardless of our finishing position, just by virtue of the list profile. If we had come out firing and done really well this year, maybe that rebuild could be put on hold till 2025, but that's clearly not the situation. The rebuild starts in 2024, and it should start with a clean slate.
So in short and in response to the OP, I've shifted from backing to sacking Bevo after last night's game. But I would also be devastated as a member if we let the relationship between club and coach sour. This needs to be done with dignity and respect, with a considered and reasonable approach. He's a Bullgod and always will be.
'And the Western suburbs erupt!'
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26-03-2023, 08:32 PM
#139
Re: Sharp Axes
Originally Posted by
Scorlibo
A week ago this question seemed to me not worth contemplating, but a week's a long time in footy!
That game last night was nothing short of diabolical. We've all put in our two cents on where our shortcomings are, and based on last night all of those views are 100% true - where do our problems lie?
Well the midfield can't win centre clearances, the whole side's getting outworked on the spread, we're not getting numbers to the contest either, our forwards can't take a grab, we don't have any genuine small forwards, our defenders can't hit targets, we have players going through the midfield rotations who can't find the football, we employ a listless zone, we're not fit enough, the team is too slow, the effort isn't there etc. etc. etc.
I mean... based on last night it's all true. There are a lot of issues and I have no expectation that they can be fixed in five days. That would then give us a 0-3 start to the season with Richmond and Port Adelaide to play in the following weeks. The most likely outcome to me is that we end up 1-4, but 0-5 is pretty likely too.
Our season won't survive that kind of start, and Bevo won't survive a 2023 season where we miss the eight. He's the best coach we've ever had, but all good things must come to an end. Beyond 2023 we're in rebuild territory regardless of our finishing position, just by virtue of the list profile. If we had come out firing and done really well this year, maybe that rebuild could be put on hold till 2025, but that's clearly not the situation. The rebuild starts in 2024, and it should start with a clean slate.
So in short and in response to the OP, I've shifted from backing to sacking Bevo after last night's game. But I would also be devastated as a member if we let the relationship between club and coach sour. This needs to be done with dignity and respect, with a considered and reasonable approach. He's a Bullgod and always will be.
The quicker the better, if we want to protect all parties. It’s going to get toxic at this rate.
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26-03-2023, 09:24 PM
#140
Re: Sharp Axes
Originally Posted by
SonofScray
The quicker the better, if we want to protect all parties. It’s going to get toxic at this rate.
Why will it get toxic?
Only 3x things are possible right now:
1/. This week, things are worse and all of our worst fears are confirmed.
2/. This week, they are the same or thereabouts and the debate continues.
3/. This week, things are better and the debate continues but there does seem to be a light at the end of the tunnel.
Two weeks ago the pervading view was we were a strong team and had a heap of depth. Nothing really has changed apart from 2x disappointing losses...one of them I suspect a lot of supporters expected. I’m not sure a ‘good’ organisation reacts by removing their coach after two weeks...and if I was the coach I would be thinking what a great opportunity we have to work together and turn things around.
I’m looking at it like this. The players received some feedback following the Melbourne game that they didn’t think was ‘real’ because it was Melbourne and they are spooked by that team. They ‘thought’ everything would be ok vs the saints and expected an easy kill. The feedback will now be more meaningful because ultimately they want to be thought of as good players...
In 3x weeks time when we’re 3-2 and starting to roll all of this might seem a little foolish.
Toxic? Ultimately that’s up to us isn’t it?
What should I tell her? She's going to ask.
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26-03-2023, 09:42 PM
#141
Re: Sharp Axes
Also if we think laterally, 2021 we lost to Hawthorn, Essendon, Port and we lost our leading goal kicker for the finals.
Things can change quickly.
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26-03-2023, 09:43 PM
#142
Re: Sharp Axes
So what happens if we win next week by 4+ goals?
Bevo still out?
I don't think it'll happen but it's an interesting hypothetical. For me I've lost faith in Bevo but I don't think we gain much sacking him right now. I hate caretaker roles.
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26-03-2023, 09:58 PM
#143
Re: Sharp Axes
Originally Posted by
GVGjr
I hear you but I doubt there is anything to be gained from making a quick and reactive move. You need to go through a process.
Lets say we move on Bevo, and just to be clear I'm still right behind him, in the next couple of weeks well you can just about back it in that Lade gets the interim role.
Scenario 1 - The Paul Roos example
We wear a few more losses but by mid season we start to turn it all around and Lade gets on a roll and wins 7 out of the last 8 games we don't make the finals but we've shown enough and some of the younger players have made clear steps.
He has also played his cards perfectly and has gotten in front of the sponsors and the coterie groups and won them over in his interim capacity by conveying his vision for this club.
Going out to the market for interviews to get the best candidate is now increasingly difficult because Lade has significant internal support. You don't want to piss off the major club sponsors and have rumblings in the coterie groups as that is a very difficult scenario for the club to manage and one that I wouldn't be confident we have the skills to counter.
Scenario 2 - The Alan Joyce experience
The club feels like it has to make the move on Bevo as results aren't in line with how we rate the list. As a premiership coach and possibly our most successful one ever it needs to be done in a quick and respectful manner. The problem is that in this industry it's almost impossible to conduct interviews or to canvass candidates without it leaking and then having to manage all the noise it will create and given Bevo isn't a fool he's going to know he is being under minded. That is a poor scenario for us and even if you could somehow make a quick appointment how do you measure if it's the right fit for us? The playing list and the plans around game style and fitness wasn't theirs and you really don't know if they are the right fit because you rushed it.
Scenario 3 - The Rocket Eade example
Despite sustained and impressive results it's become evident that Bevo has some challenges in taking the list and the club any further. As a club you say all the right things of support but you start a review. You pitch it that we may not have the right footy department set up in place and blame it mainly on the AFL's soft cap. That is a great scenario because it's someone else's fault.
You start your review but quickly suspect Bevo's done his best and a change is required. You can call in experts like Buckley to get his opinions about our footy department set-up and guess what you can also gauge if he is genuinely someone you might be interested in under the guise that he's a consultant who is helping us out.
As the weeks drag on and reviews are never quick, a call to Cameron or Gia can be made just to see if they might be interested. You can probably manage that scenario and keep it quiet because they are reading the play. By round 17 or so you announce you are making a change and Bevo steps away handing the keys to Lade who can't do any real damage but who might impress.
You have also built a list of candidates that you can start working with and if Bevo was to suspect he was in a losing battle by the middle of the season and he jumps early then the club thanks him for his outstanding journey and wishes him all the best.
As fans and supporters we might have to suck it up for a year but scenario 3 works the best in my opinion in getting the appointment right. I hope it never gets to that stage but making change for change sake is a mugs game.
I respect completely what you are saying and it makes sense, BUT, if Bevo is not going to take the players any further, if he has lost the group, or if he has got the preseason and game plan wrong then you make change now, no matter the consequences. Yes you run the risk of Lade being given the keys and doing a great interim job but falling when the pressure is on, but a strong club manages that. Sure you run the risk that it gets ugly and you undermine our 2nd Premiership coach, but as Ross Lyon and StKilda have shown, you have to be strong enough to make the tough decisions.
Speaking from personal experience because I am in the equivalent of the Lade situation, my boss has left, I've been running the team and effectively doing his job for the last 4 months. Everyone assumes that I'll be given the keys to the castle. Everyone but me that is. It would be nice and I know I can do the job, but that is not necessarily what management want and at some point in the next 3 to 6 months they will come up for air and make a call. Tough on me probably, but hey that is what tough decisions are all about. You make the RIGHT decision and not the EASY decision.
I also want to say that I am not in the sack Bevo tomorrow camp. I think he can turn this around, but a 0-5 start with no more than half a quarter of decent football played in each game would move me to the otherside.
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26-03-2023, 10:32 PM
#144
Re: Sharp Axes
Originally Posted by
Grantysghost
Also if we think laterally, 2021 we lost to Hawthorn, Essendon, Port and we lost our leading goal kicker for the finals.
Things can change quickly.
Who played in those winning finals teams? Anyone that was given the boot?
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26-03-2023, 10:36 PM
#145
Re: Sharp Axes
Didn't we recently have a review? What happened with that? What were the results?
The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride.
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26-03-2023, 10:37 PM
#146
Re: Sharp Axes
Originally Posted by
Danjul
Who played in those winning finals teams? Anyone that was given the boot?
It's a trap!
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26-03-2023, 10:43 PM
#147
Re: Sharp Axes
Originally Posted by
Danjul
Who played in those winning finals teams? Anyone that was given the boot?
Lew Young. Schache. Hunter. Cordy (in effect). Are they the ones?
Rocket Science: the epitaph for the Beveridge era - whenever it ends - reading 'Here lies a team that could beat anyone on its day, but seldom did when it mattered most'. 15/7/2023
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26-03-2023, 10:53 PM
#148
Re: Sharp Axes
Originally Posted by
FrediKanoute
I respect completely what you are saying and it makes sense, BUT, if Bevo is not going to take the players any further, if he has lost the group, or if he has got the preseason and game plan wrong then you make change now, no matter the consequences. Yes you run the risk of Lade being given the keys and doing a great interim job but falling when the pressure is on, but a strong club manages that. Sure you run the risk that it gets ugly and you undermine our 2nd Premiership coach, but as Ross Lyon and StKilda have shown, you have to be strong enough to make the tough decisions.
I also want to say that I am not in the sack Bevo tomorrow camp. I think he can turn this around, but a 0-5 start with no more than half a quarter of decent football played in each game would move me to the otherside.
Lets go through the main crux of your assumption in that Bevo has lost the group because I don't feel that can be confirmed in any way. Coaches and their clubs can still win games even if there is plenty of tension between the coach and some of the players.
You can also lose games closely and there be tension between the coaches and players.
The results so far have been awful and no one can deny it because the scoreboard and the vision supports it but I can't say I've seen anything to suggest the players or coaches aren't invested. It's an often used and a catchy phrase when clubs are challenged but I'd really like for someone to point out why they think that has happened. Why has the coach apparently lost the players?
I'm not against making change but making a quick and reactive one that shits on a coach that has got us to two Grand Finals ideally needs to be done professionally and be fact based rather than with a mindset that he must go and anyone else is preferential.
I'd like us to start a review to identify why we are struggling for effort and why the game plan that we trained for all summer hasn't been or can't be implemented.
Of course there is a real chance Lade could be given the role at some time during the season but we owe it ourselves to work out what the challenges are and if it's significantly on Bevo that necessitates a need to make a move or not.
Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"
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26-03-2023, 11:06 PM
#149
Re: Sharp Axes
Originally Posted by
Grantysghost
It's a trap!
The real question is
why did we lose those 3 games and fall out of the four ?
Hawks won hitouts 55 to 15
Essendon won hitouts 53 to 33 ? 8 scores from centre bounce in a game we otherwise controlled.
port won hitouts 52 to 18
these might have been a factor.
still happening ? every game lately is simply a recurring nightmare.
and I suspect for the players too.
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26-03-2023, 11:11 PM
#150
Re: Sharp Axes
Originally Posted by
bulldogtragic
Lew Young. Schache. Hunter. Cordy (in effect). Are they the ones?
Jones ( short term) and Baker seem to be good replacements. But is it a net loss we haven't fully covered. I was impressed with Cordy last night.
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