2011-12 UEFA Champions League

[Eastdog]

Re: 2011-12 UEFA Champions League

Chelsea I feel we're always bound to win it eventually as we (Man U) beat them on penalties in 08 and then they were unlucky in 05 (the controversial Garcia Liverpool) and 09 (the ref decisions against Barcalona).

[chef]

Re: 2011-12 UEFA Champions League

Amazing come back really. I thought Chelsea were gone when they were 3-1 down to Napoli. It looked like there would be no English teams in the last 8. A little bit of sweet revenge when you win won on Penalty Kicks after losing one on Penalty Kicks (a little like Italy winning the World Cup in 2006 after being denied from the spot in 1990).

A couple of observations;

- They English beat the Germans in a Penalty shoot out ... one for the ages
- Chelsea using the good old Italian catenaccio system to deny first Barcelona and then Bayern
- Good to see a different team win for a change instead of the usual suspects (e.g. AC Milan, Barcelona, Manchester United, Real Madrid etc.)

It didn't feel like revenge to me, it just felt fair that this was our turn.

[chef]

Re: 2011-12 UEFA Champions League

Chelsea I feel we're always bound to win it eventually as we (Man U) beat them on penalties in 08 and then they were unlucky in 05 (the controversial Garcia Liverpool) and 09 (the ref decisions against Barcalona).

Yep, about time.

[Eastdog]

Re: 2011-12 UEFA Champions League

Yep, about time.

If you had won the EPL it would have been a treble. In 1999 both us and Bayern were on 2 trophies (the League and Cup competition) so the winner of the ECL would get the treble and deny the other team. In the end it was us winning in amazing circumstances right at the end not even getting to extra time.

[LostDoggy]

Re: 2011-12 UEFA Champions League

It was one of those things.. clearly fate or whatever you want to call it was in Chelsea's corner this whole tournament.

Coming back against Napoli was one thing, but for Barca and Bayern (Messi and Robben!) to BOTH miss penalties against Chelsea that would have finished their respective ties, and for Drogba to score the only times he got chances in both that semi-final first leg and then this morning.. it was like Greece winning the European Cup: just meant to be.

You can't fight that kind of karma -- they were the 'poorer' side in every single one of their matches in the knockout stage INCLUDING in the final, where Bayern completely dominated (I can't believe Drogba's goal was Chelsea's first corner), yet here they are with the trophy. Can't really say they 'deserved' it, but you don't win tournaments like this with luck, so they are rightful winners.

Drogba is a real match-winner.

[chef]

Re: 2011-12 UEFA Champions League

It was one of those things.. clearly fate or whatever you want to call it was in Chelsea's corner this whole tournament.

Coming back against Napoli was one thing, but for Barca and Bayern (Messi and Robben!) to BOTH miss penalties against Chelsea that would have finished their respective ties, and for Drogba to score the only times he got chances in both that semi-final first leg and then this morning.. it was like Greece winning the European Cup: just meant to be.

You can't fight that kind of karma -- they were the 'poorer' side in every single one of their matches in the knockout stage INCLUDING in the final, where Bayern completely dominated (I can't believe Drogba's goal was Chelsea's first corner), yet here they are with the trophy. Can't really say they 'deserved' it, but you don't win tournaments like this with luck, so they are rightful winners.

Drogba is a real match-winner.

He is, but he's also more than just a footballer. Here's an article from a couple of years ago about him

http://www.mtnfootball.com/special-reports/africa/2010/100506-didier-drogba-feature8207.html

I found it funny that we couldn't win the damn thing as the dominant attacking team, yet were able to do it once we sat back, defended and counter attacked. I guess it all comes down to quality not quantity of possession and shots on goal, plus having Cech in the form of his life helps too.

[chef]

Re: 2011-12 UEFA Champions League

It was one of those things.. clearly fate or whatever you want to call it was in Chelsea's corner this whole tournament.

Coming back against Napoli was one thing, but for Barca and Bayern (Messi and Robben!) to BOTH miss penalties against Chelsea that would have finished their respective ties, and for Drogba to score the only times he got chances in both that semi-final first leg and then this morning.. it was like Greece winning the European Cup: just meant to be.

You can't fight that kind of karma -- they were the 'poorer' side in every single one of their matches in the knockout stage INCLUDING in the final, where Bayern completely dominated (I can't believe Drogba's goal was Chelsea's first corner), yet here they are with the trophy. Can't really say they 'deserved' it, but you don't win tournaments like this with luck, so they are rightful winners.

Drogba is a real match-winner.

Really

Did you watch every game mate?

[LostDoggy]

Re: 2011-12 UEFA Champions League

Really

Did you watch every game mate?

I did. I also said 'poorer' in inverted commas.. they were dominated in every game in all the important statistics (you know, possession, shots on target, that type of thing) except the most important one, of course (goals).

I know that in the semi-final and the final these were deliberate choices, but surely you can see where I'm coming from? At no point did they dominate any of their matches (except for parts of that second leg against Napoli).

Defence is an important part of football though, so no, I don't really think they were actually 'poorer' in general. It does say something about RDM's own judgment of the squad that they had to play the way they did against a Bayern team that just got pantsed by Dortmund 5-2 in the German Cup final. It also says that RDM understands the squad's limitations better than AVB did -- Andres tried to play a positive style with this squad but failed, RDM knew better and decided to hide the team's limitations and rely on organisation and deep defending and Drogba's class to get them results, and it definitely did, but only just, you have to admit. How many posts did Barca and Bayern hit against Chelsea? And how many penalties will Messi and Robben miss in their careers? The stars aligned for Chelsea, but it would be a stretch to say that they were the better side in any of their matches. But who cares, right? They were the winning side, and that's better.

That's why I said Drogba was a true match-winner.. he put away the only two real chances he had in the semi-final and final. You can't say that the goal from the corner in the final was 'deserved' in any real way, but it was certainly put away with class, and that's football.

[chef]

Re: 2011-12 UEFA Champions League

I did. I also said 'poorer' in inverted commas.. they were dominated in every game in all the important statistics (you know, possession, shots on target, that type of thing) except the most important one, of course (goals).

I know that in the semi-final and the final these were deliberate choices, but surely you can see where I'm coming from? At no point did they dominate any of their matches (except for parts of that second leg against Napoli).

Defence is an important part of football though, so no, I don't really think they were actually 'poorer' in general. It does say something about RDM's own judgment of the squad that they had to play the way they did against a Bayern team that just got pantsed by Dortmund 5-2 in the German Cup final. It also says that RDM understands the squad's limitations better than AVB did -- Andres tried to play a positive style with this squad but failed, RDM knew better and decided to hide the team's limitations and rely on organisation and deep defending and Drogba's class to get them results, and it definitely did, but only just, you have to admit. How many posts did Barca and Bayern hit against Chelsea? And how many penalties will Messi and Robben miss in their careers? The stars aligned for Chelsea, but it would be a stretch to say that they were the better side in any of their matches. But who cares, right? They were the winning side, and that's better.

That's why I said Drogba was a true match-winner.. he put away the only two real chances he had in the semi-final and final. You can't say that the goal from the corner in the final was 'deserved' in any real way, but it was certainly put away with class, and that's football.

It is.

AVB stuffed up by losing the players in the dressing room(and by playing a high line which didn't suit our squad) and there was no coming back from there. Anelka and Alex were placed in exile while players like Lampard, Cech(WTF), Drogba, Cole etc were told they weren't in his future plans. This appointment was probably 5-10 years to early for AVB and I am sure he's learnt a lot and it will make him a better manager in the long term.

ps. I thought we controled Benfica over two legs.

Now give RDM the job, Drogba accept a 1 year deal and Eden Hazard choose Chelsea over the two Manchester clubs please.

[Remi Moses]

Re: 2011-12 UEFA Champions League

Well done to Chelsea. Destiny seemed in their corner, as it was for Utd in 99.
Haven't seen the game but sounds like ol' sicknote Robben bottled it!!

[The Coon Dog]

Re: 2011-12 UEFA Champions League

Well done to Chelsea. Destiny seemed in their corner, as it was for Utd in 99.
Haven't seen the game but sounds like ol' sicknote Robben bottled it!!

For someone designated to take penalties for them it seems incredulous that he didn't step up when required, can only agree.

[FrediKanoute]

Re: 2011-12 UEFA Champions League

Really

Did you watch every game mate?

I did, I watched them all.....I haven't seen a team less deserving of a Champions League win. If that's the kind of football that it takes to win a major trophy then you may as well write the game off completely. It was negative football, with 10 men behind the ball catching the opposition on the break.

What you have is the football equivalent of a Bradbury.....

[chef]

Re: 2011-12 UEFA Champions League

I did, I watched them all.....I haven't seen a team less deserving of a Champions League win. If that's the kind of football that it takes to win a major trophy then you may as well write the game off completely. It was negative football, with 10 men behind the ball catching the opposition on the break.

What you have is the football equivalent of a Bradbury.....

Fair enough. I am sorry you feel that way.

We obviously see things differently and I guess you need to be a Chelsea supporter to properly appreciate what we just achieved.

On another note Drogba has played in 9 finals for Chelsea and scored 9 goals in those games. How do you replace a player like that. Looks like he will be playing for Shanghai Shenhua next season.

[LostDoggy]

Re: 2011-12 UEFA Champions League

I did, I watched them all.....I haven't seen a team less deserving of a Champions League win. If that's the kind of football that it takes to win a major trophy then you may as well write the game off completely. It was negative football, with 10 men behind the ball catching the opposition on the break.

What you have is the football equivalent of a Bradbury.....

It has been the way to win a major trophy since Argentina in 1990 showed that you can make it all the way to the World Cup final with a mediocre squad just playing for penalties. Since then, positive teams have been largely penalised for attacking, especially as counter-attacking has become such an incredibly precise science (what is it: I think Sir Alex quantified it with Ronaldo and Rooney, 9.2 seconds and 3 touches to go from one end to another?). Greece beating a bunch of wonderfully talented teams to win a European Cup by basically being 1980s Wimbledon, and then Jose's Inter taking parking the bus to new levels, just proved further that in a game where fitter and fitter players and larger and larger goalkeepers have made pitches small and goals tiny that you don't have to create to win.

It is also ironic that television created the pressure to eliminate replays and decide things with shoot-outs, because it created an incentive to play destructive football and go for penalties, which is the worst kind of football to watch, so it is ironic that the medium that benefits most from attractive football has also created perverse incentives for horrible football.

That's why Spain and Barcelona's wins have been so welcome by purists and traditionalists.. it just proved, for a little while, that positive, beautiful football could still be winning football. (If Holland, playing the way they did in that last WC final, had won that last World Cup we would have seen an even quicker descent into just destructive, stupid football.)

Spain and Barcelona look like a blip though, especially at the highest levels. Jose couldn't even get an incredible Real Madrid side to win in Europe with amazing attacking football. The only worthwhile tournaments to watch now if you're looking for excitement and talent on show are in South America and African regional tournaments.. the future belongs to the beasts.

ps. Chef, Fredi's point is that yes, it may mean a lot to Chelsea fans, and is no doubt a win for them (just as Manchester City's was to them), but it was not a win for football. But no one -- least of all UEFA or FIFA -- really care about the game anymore other than how much money it makes. Like the AFL, the game has hollowed out.. it still represents a lot of stuff, social allegiances, the need to 'belong' to a tribe etc., but not the beauty of sport. You'll be hard-pressed to have found anyone (other than Chelsea fans of course) who really enjoyed that game on the weekend.

But like I said, who cares, right? Winners are grinners.. although it begs the question: what are we playing for?

[Sockeye Salmon]

Re: 2011-12 UEFA Champions League

It has been the way to win a major trophy since Argentina in 1990 showed that you can make it all the way to the World Cup final with a mediocre squad just playing for penalties. Since then, positive teams have been largely penalised for attacking, especially as counter-attacking has become such an incredibly precise science (what is it: I think Sir Alex quantified it with Ronaldo and Rooney, 9.2 seconds and 3 touches to go from one end to another?). Greece beating a bunch of wonderfully talented teams to win a European Cup by basically being 1980s Wimbledon, and then Jose's Inter taking parking the bus to new levels, just proved further that in a game where fitter and fitter players and larger and larger goalkeepers have made pitches small and goals tiny that you don't have to create to win.

It is also ironic that television created the pressure to eliminate replays and decide things with shoot-outs, because it created an incentive to play destructive football and go for penalties, which is the worst kind of football to watch, so it is ironic that the medium that benefits most from attractive football has also created perverse incentives for horrible football.

That's why Spain and Barcelona's wins have been so welcome by purists and traditionalists.. it just proved, for a little while, that positive, beautiful football could still be winning football. (If Holland, playing the way they did in that last WC final, had won that last World Cup we would have seen an even quicker descent into just destructive, stupid football.)

Spain and Barcelona look like a blip though, especially at the highest levels. Jose couldn't even get an incredible Real Madrid side to win in Europe with amazing attacking football. The only worthwhile tournaments to watch now if you're looking for excitement and talent on show are in South America and African regional tournaments.. the future belongs to the beasts.

ps. Chef, Fredi's point is that yes, it may mean a lot to Chelsea fans, and is no doubt a win for them (just as Manchester City's was to them), but it was not a win for football. But no one -- least of all UEFA or FIFA -- really care about the game anymore other than how much money it makes. Like the AFL, the game has hollowed out.. it still represents a lot of stuff, social allegiances, the need to 'belong' to a tribe etc., but not the beauty of sport. You'll be hard-pressed to have found anyone (other than Chelsea fans of course) who really enjoyed that game on the weekend.

But like I said, who cares, right? Winners are grinners.. although it begs the question: what are we playing for?

That post was about soccer, right? Not AFL?