Hawthorn game - it was SO....PREDICTABLE??

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Somehow I answered this twice.

He doesn't defend though....like ...at all, compared to say an Impey or Amon.

Yep, there was an effort earlier in the game where he missed a tackle and his effort - or complete lack of - was as bad as you're ever likely to see.

[lemmon]

I think we're following the same path we did to 2021, after a rebuild and it's just the commentariat that has gotten smitten with us even though we've not proved a single thing against opposition that matters, outside of some good form late last year.

The injuries haven't helped, sure, but the fringe players are either new or haven't developed the resilience and or reliability to execute when it matters. I look at the Sanders missed opportunity as a case in point, where a mature version of him smashes it through post high instead of diddling it along the ground tentatively...........there's too much of that type of thing that happens.

I think in a lot of ways the injuries have helped the discourse around the side and contributed to the 'Dogs are a very good team' narrative.

Those close, hard fought losses without the Bonts, Darcys and Treloars have been glossed over because there's an idea that we'll be virtually unstoppable when those players do come back in. I think the reality is that the really good sides get it done with outs and individual talent isn't the defining element over team structure and ethos.

[mjp]

I just wanted to double down on this after yesterday.

To be fair, I was at the WAFL all day and haven't seen the game. But I tipped the Crows to win and see absolutely no reason to expect us to get over the Bears this upcoming weekend.

Since we lost to Hawthorn we have beaten up a few cellar dwellers before running into the Crows. On the tipping site I use (footytips.com.au) when I entered my selection we were 'favoured' 77%-23%...I wonder if at some point 'we' are going to learn.

Anyway. Just so disappointed.

[jeemak]

At some point the footy world will believe what quantitative evidence and their eyes show them, and not what they're told to believe about where our list is apparently at or how we play by the lazy commentariat.

[Aidan7557]

At some point the footy world will believe what quantitative evidence and their eyes show them, and not what they're told to believe about where our list is apparently at or how we play by the lazy commentariat.

It's just because our top 5 or 6 are so elite and sexy to talk about. As well all know there are 18 on the field and i don't think the media as a whole cares about vandameer, coffield, O'donnel etc or even know who they are. It is and will always be a team sport.

[Mantis]

I just wanted to double down on this after yesterday.

To be fair, I was at the WAFL all day and haven't seen the game. But I tipped the Crows to win and see absolutely no reason to expect us to get over the Bears this upcoming weekend.

Since we lost to Hawthorn we have beaten up a few cellar dwellers before running into the Crows. On the tipping site I use (footytips.com.au) when I entered my selection we were 'favoured' 77%-23%...I wonder if at some point 'we' are going to learn.

Anyway. Just so disappointed.

With all respect do you want a pat on the back for selecting Adelaide?

[mjp]

With all respect do you want a pat on the back for selecting Adelaide?

Pretty sure you know I don't. I was just making the point that 'everyone' (well, 77% of everyone) thinks we're 'good'. All the evidence says we're not. Bont had 37, Naughton kicked 5 and Richards played out of his skin. And we still lost.

For things to change we have to actually CHANGE. Sadly chucking Garcia in the middle ahead of Freijah is not a positive change in any way (though to be fair Freijah has been pretty poor in recent times)....

Just frustrated mate - it feels like everyone has an excuse (sorry, reason) for why we lose games to the top teams on the ladder - and, to be fair, the fact that will always seem to find different ways to lose each of these games does make it hard to get to the bottom of it - but we remain a middle of the pack side who simply isn't able to own it's moments in games against committed opposition.

[SquirrelGrip]

Sadly chucking Garcia in the middle ahead of Freijah is not a positive change in any way (though to be fair Freijah has been pretty poor in recent times)....

This is a good point that no one has really discussed at all. Garcia is a competitor but by no means a game-breaker. He's better placed as a defensive forward or high half forward in the current structure. Freijah (whilst still chasing consistency) does influence games. I'd prefer to see Rhylee West rotated through the mids ahead of Garcia.

Playing young small forwards - Hynes, Dolan and Sanders (although he's more on the wing) means we lose strength with tackling and physical pressure. They'll be much better when their bodies mature, but Garcia is probably a better option in that part of the ground.

[Mantis]

Pretty sure you know I don't. I was just making the point that 'everyone' (well, 77% of everyone) thinks we're 'good'. All the evidence says we're not. Bont had 37, Naughton kicked 5 and Richards played out of his skin. And we still lost.

In reality we were playing at a venue that we had won something like 10 of our last 11 games and against an interstate team who had a quite similar poor record against the other contenders... but like you I wasn't confident and sat in the 23% grouping too.

For things to change we have to actually CHANGE. Sadly chucking Garcia in the middle ahead of Freijah is not a positive change in any way (though to be fair Freijah has been pretty poor in recent times)....

It was a much more positive move than you suggest.

Garcia won 3-4 centre clearances and added some much-needed energy into the centre square that was getting touched up. He wasn't the issue and was one of our few positives from our middle/ bottom tiered players.

I would've loved Freijah to have had an impact in any spot, but when everyone else is running past you, well it shows your work rate isn't where it needs to be. He has had 2 very poor games after being spoken about in really glowing terms... and he deserved it as his performance against Sydney was quite outstanding... but he needs to bring the same work ethic each week, which he might not be capable of as a 2nd year player.

Just frustrated mate - it feels like everyone has an excuse (sorry, reason) for why we lose games to the top teams on the ladder - and, to be fair, the fact that will always seem to find different ways to lose each of these games does make it hard to get to the bottom of it - but we remain a middle of the pack side who simply isn't able to own it's moments in games against committed opposition.

I've got the shits too... just over the fact that even though we have lots of parts right, we still aren't a team that can be trusted to compete & win against the best... you could feel this reality in post-match commentary from Ed & Bevo... something needs to change.

[soupman]

This is a good point that no one has really discussed at all. Garcia is a competitor but by no means a game-breaker. He's better placed as a defensive forward or high half forward in the current structure. Freijah (whilst still chasing consistency) does influence games. I'd prefer to see Rhylee West rotated through the mids ahead of Garcia.

Playing young small forwards - Hynes, Dolan and Sanders (although he's more on the wing) means we lose strength with tackling and physical pressure. They'll be much better when their bodies mature, but Garcia is probably a better option in that part of the ground.

Is he though?

The vast majority of his games in the last few years have come in that role, and he isnt good at it.

Doesn't own moments and isn't a goal threat at all unlike West, doesn't adhere to structures and worand hard as Laitham, has never been as composed and prominent as Sanders, he isn't a small forward.

He is a mid or nothing, and is probably a Libba backup in style. He has to make it playing in and out of there and contributing up forward. He isn't an AFL player playing mostly up forward.

[jeemak]

Is he though?

The vast majority of his games in the last few years have come in that role, and he isnt good at it.

Doesn't own moments and isn't a goal threat at all unlike West, doesn't adhere to structures and worand hard as Laitham, has never been as composed and prominent as Sanders, he isn't a small forward.

He is a mid or nothing, and is probably a Libba backup in style. He has to make it playing in and out of there and contributing up forward. He isn't an AFL player playing mostly up forward.

I would retire Libba and replace him with a blend of Sanders, Garcia and West next year. Especially if we think Weightman is going to be ready to return to the forward line.

If Garcia can't perform as a midfielder than I agree there isn't a place for him in our mix and we trade him with a year to go on his contract, just keep him as insurance or to generate competitive tension if we can't bring in a quality half forward. It will be interesting to see what happens with Treloar. I'm almost ready to rip it apart a bit taking some more pain given our troubles in the back half are unlikely to be fixed within twelve months.

[Mantis]

I would retire Libba and replace him with a blend of Sanders, Garcia and West next year. Especially if we think Weightman is going to be ready to return to the forward line.

If Garcia can't perform as a midfielder than I agree there isn't a place for him in our mix and we trade him with a year to go on his contract, just keep him as insurance or to generate competitive tension if we can't bring in a quality half forward. It will be interesting to see what happens with Treloar. I'm almost ready to rip it apart a bit taking some more pain given our troubles in the back half are unlikely to be fixed within twelve months.

It’s going to be really interesting to see how we tackle trying to go from a 7-9 team to a top 4 team.

Some hard calls are going to have to be made, we started that off last year when we shifted on Jack & Caleb… but it’s pretty clear that more work needs to occur.

[mjp]

It was a much more positive move than you suggest.

Garcia won 3-4 centre clearances and added some much-needed energy into the centre square that was getting touched up. He wasn't the issue and was one of our few positives from our middle/ bottom tiered players.

We'll never agree on Garcia but something needs to change.

My suggestions are pretty limited right now.

Before I start
#1. Defending isn't about the back 6 but it isn't NOT about the back 6. The mix seems wrong.
#2. We've turned several defenders into mids recently...do we need them to be mids?
#3. We had 9 players with less than 50-games out there on Saturday and it really does 'feel' like the club has 'chosen' this...

1/. 2-talls. Mark it down.
- If we're rolling with Lobb and JOD, so be it. I know lots of people have opinions here but I really don't.

If you want to play Jones over JOD or you want to play Buss...I mean, have at it. Just pick 2 and move on.

2/. Medium defenders.
- We actually need some warm bodies here. I would actually continue to play Coffield despite all the angst - he can be quite frightening ball in hand but also hasn't played much in like, 5-years. So he's gonna get better. I would leave Williams down there, I would leave Freijah down there and I would (of course) leave Dale and Bramble down there.

That's 5. In this world obviously Williams and Freijah and giving the wingers (Davidson and Harmes) a chop out...given this scenario it is entirely plausible to play 8x backs and create 2x 5-player rotation groups one of which includes both wingers but I don't think this is necessarily the strength of the team so wouldn't do that.

Right now this all leaves JJ without a spot in my world.

3/. The small defender 'problem'.
- No doubt this is an issue and one that isn't easy to solve. I think we had obviously hoped that either Duryea would still be 'fine' or Gallagher would be 'ready'...neither of these things have 'worked out'. Pre-season, we played VDM down there and that would be my decision - move him out of the forward set into the backs and allow him to take the smalls. I don't see any other alternatives. To me, right now we have alternatives 'forward' - albeit without the same defensive instincts and intent...but we don't have anyone to play back. I would do it.

Let's be clear - nothing is going to save us if Thilthorpe cruises around taking marks and kicks 6 goals...but we (surely) need to change something.

VDM, Williams and Freijah back with the latter two providing wing cover. That's my plan.

[Bornadog]

We'll never agree on Garcia but something needs to change.

My suggestions are pretty limited right now.

Before I start
#1. Defending isn't about the back 6 but it isn't NOT about the back 6. The mix seems wrong.
#2. We've turned several defenders into mids recently...do we need them to be mids?
#3. We had 9 players with less than 50-games out there on Saturday and it really does 'feel' like the club has 'chosen' this...

1/. 2-talls. Mark it down.
- If we're rolling with Lobb and JOD, so be it. I know lots of people have opinions here but I really don't.

If you want to play Jones over JOD or you want to play Buss...I mean, have at it. Just pick 2 and move on.

2/. Medium defenders.
- We actually need some warm bodies here. I would actually continue to play Coffield despite all the angst - he can be quite frightening ball in hand but also hasn't played much in like, 5-years. So he's gonna get better. I would leave Williams down there, I would leave Freijah down there and I would (of course) leave Dale and Bramble down there.

That's 5. In this world obviously Williams and Freijah and giving the wingers (Davidson and Harmes) a chop out...given this scenario it is entirely plausible to play 8x backs and create 2x 5-player rotation groups one of which includes both wingers but I don't think this is necessarily the strength of the team so wouldn't do that.

Right now this all leaves JJ without a spot in my world.

3/. The small defender 'problem'.
- No doubt this is an issue and one that isn't easy to solve. I think we had obviously hoped that either Duryea would still be 'fine' or Gallagher would be 'ready'...neither of these things have 'worked out'. Pre-season, we played VDM down there and that would be my decision - move him out of the forward set into the backs and allow him to take the smalls. I don't see any other alternatives. To me, right now we have alternatives 'forward' - albeit without the same defensive instincts and intent...but we don't have anyone to play back. I would do it.

Let's be clear - nothing is going to save us if Thilthorpe cruises around taking marks and kicks 6 goals...but we (surely) need to change something.

VDM, Williams and Freijah back with the latter two providing wing cover. That's my plan.

Totally agree with this. Freijah the last few weeks doesn't know if he is Arthur or Martha, VDM is trying his guts out, but we need him involved and we are looking for a small defender. He has played there in the past and Williams best position for me is the backline, but don't try and play him as a tall.

[jeemak]

We're relatively aligned MJP when we say our defensive issues aren't really about our back six to eight, solely. So much happens up ground to protect them, and if we drop pressure/tackle effectiveness they get cooked.

However, per the thread I posted regarding what I'd do to try and hang onto the season and compete/roll the dice I'd definitely put Bont in the intercepting position post centre bounces and mobilise JF where he played his best footy in Bont's absence or when Bont was quiet. Happy enough with Williams and VDM back, meaning JJ goes forward if he plays at all.

Bont needs to take on the responsibility and having season high rating games as a midfielder isn't how I want him to do it. Lobb is new to defence, JOD is relatively new to AFL and everyone in the area needs leadership that we don't have with Duryea and Jones out of the side. Why can't Bont stand up and fulfill this role? He's the best player in the competition, great overhead, 194cm and probably close to 95kgs and an amazing distributor by foot! Everyone has always talked of him playing forward, but we already have Naughton and Darcy commanding a lot of ball, and with Bont back English doesn't have to worry about getting back as much meaning he can be a threat forward as well.

One argument against Bont back was needing him to be further afield and deliver into the forward line, and that's fair enough. But if we intercept and distribute off half back effectively we'll not need the precision Bont brings as much as we do now.