List Management - Hawthorn

[GVGjr]

I was having a look a replay of the Hawks vs Port this morning and it's amazing how many players the Hawks have either traded early draft picks for and the way they have positioned themselves for drafts. Their results would indicate that it works for them. When compared to Geelong it's quite a contrast because the Cats currently have no players on their list that they traded for.

Major Trades
David Hale - Traded by North Melbourne for pick #27 and #71
Jack Gunston - Traded by Adelaide for pick #24, #46 and #64
Shaun Burgoyne - Traded by Port Adelaide for pick #9 and #16
Josh Gibson - Traded by North Melbourne for pick #25 and #41

Other acquisitions
Stephen Gilham - Rookie list elevation via Port
Jarrad Boumann - Rookie list elevation via Bulldogs
Broc McCauley - Rookie list elevation via Lions
Brent Guerra - Pre-season draft selection
Cameron Bruce - Pre-season draft selection

From the various state leagues
Paul Puopolo - Draft pick #66
Isaac Smith - Draft pick #19
Ben Stratton - Draft pick #46

The Swans also have a long and well known history of trading for established players which seems to work well for them and I think they have 9 or 10 players that they have traded for or drafted with AFL experience.

For a number of years now the the Hawks have placed a premium for acquiring ruckman and for highly skilled users of the football. Over the last couple of years it's been focused on getting some run into the side.

I know it's not an exact science and that there are a number of failures along the way but the contrast between clubs can be a long way apart and yet some clubs like Geelong that rarely trade for players and Hawthorn and the Swans that do somehow make it work for them.

To me trading for players is an absolute requirement of list management for clubs and the ones that do all the planning and set a good course seem to reap the rewards.

I think our approach is more around just selecting players via the draft table more than going in with plan and building towards it.

Is there anything that we gain by having a closer look at the Hawks drafting and trading model?

(by the way, I have placed this specifically on this board because I want to focus on the drafting and trading of some clubs)

[Rocco Jones]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

There's more than one way to skin a cat. It's not so much about picking a specific strategy, such as trading or drafting on specific needs, IMO it's more about having a clear focus and plan. In this regard the Hawks, Cats and Swans are similar.

The Hawks and Swans display some 'Moneyball' philoshpies.

For nearly a decade now, the Swans have been stock market experts, going for players they believe are undervalued.

The Hawks are a bit more based on trading for needs, started with the Pelchen era (or maybe that was just the hype) going after skilled users of the ball. As you mention GVG, they use the trade period to supplement issues from drafting/weaknesses in the team. This mainly involves ruckmen and key-backs. They also have Pattinson and tried out Skipper and Paul Johnson. Their views on the ruck remind me of the journeymen bench centres in the NBA.

The Cats are about drafting towards their style. They seem to place a premium on decision makers.

[Bornadog]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

The Hawks have done very well with trading for the players that they needed, whereas I think our approach has been different. We have gone down the Rookie route, ie trying players out as rookies first before we elevate them, although we have tried to trade for needs as well, such as Sherman, DJ, Vez. Of the rookies, Moles, Mulligan, Hooper were elevated but as we all know these have been premature and now wasted picks for players untried at senior level.

We have also had success in the Rookie draft with Morris, Boyd, Harbrow. In the last five years we were desperate for forwards/key forwards, so we went for ageing stars such as Aker, Welsh, Bazza but these were short term and I think short sighted.

We really need to trade for some players in the 23 to 26 year old bracket as this is currently our biggest issue and will be more of a concern when our 6 or 7, 30 year olds start to retire.

Now that we have a list manager should make a big difference.

[Rocco Jones]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

In the last five years we were desperate for forwards/key forwards, so we went for ageing stars such as Aker, Welsh, Bazza but these were short term and I think short sighted.

I get your point but I am not sure I agree with you. When considering short term trading you need to think of two things;

1- are you in a premiership window?
2- are you giving away a valuable pick/youngster?

We secured Aker and Bazza for late picks and Welsh in the PSD, basically the last spot on our list.

I believed we were in a premiership window and we were very, VERY close to making a GF. Then we got Barry and made another PF.

I know it's easy in hindsight and that's not having a crack at you BAD. Sometimes you gotta take risks and I though the risk was nowhere near as the potential award at the time .

[Bornadog]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

I get your point but I am not sure I agree with you. When considering short term trading you need to think of two things;

1- are you in a premiership window?
2- are you giving away a valuable pick/youngster?

We secured Aker and Bazza for late picks and Welsh in the PSD, basically the last spot on our list.

I believed we were in a premiership window and we were very, VERY close to making a GF. Then we got Barry and made another PF.

I know it's easy in hindsight and that's not having a crack at you BAD. Sometimes you gotta take risks and I though the risk was nowhere near as the potential award at the time .

I agree but in hindsight I don't if you get what I mean. Ok, maybe the right thing then.

But now, we should not be going for anyone over 26/27.

[Rocco Jones]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

I agree but in hindsight I don't if you get what I mean. Ok, maybe the right thing then.

But now, we should not be going for anyone over 26/27.

Haha, I think I get what you mean!

I agree with the 26/27 call unless it is a cheap mature bodied key-forward who we believe will help develop the likes of Jones. Let me know if you see any of those laying around.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

Hawthorn have done a complete U-turn on their previous strategy.

I once remember Pelchen talking about their drafting.

It was around the time they had picked up a couple of priority picks and off-loaded Thompson and Hay.

With all their high picks, he said they wanted to bring in:

2 rucks
4 KP
1 mid-sized defender
1 attacking defender
2 ball winning mids
2 ball users


From memory, they got:

Bailey and Renouf;
Franklin, Roughead, Dowler & Thorp
Murphy
Birchall
Lewis and ?
Muston and ?

[Remi Moses]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

I'll make it short and sweet
Use the draft please! Geelong method for mine and let's get our recruiting and coaching right

[MrMahatma]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

Hawthorn have done a complete U-turn on their previous strategy.

I once remember Pelchen talking about their drafting.

It was around the time they had picked up a couple of priority picks and off-loaded Thompson and Hay.

With all their high picks, he said they wanted to bring in:

2 rucks
4 KP
1 mid-sized defender
1 attacking defender
2 ball winning mids
2 ball users


From memory, they got:

Bailey and Renouf;
Franklin, Roughead, Dowler & Thorp
Murphy
Birchall
Lewis and ?
Muston and ?

Mitchell & Ellis?

Hawks were good at trading out also - Rawlings, Hay, Croad. They missed a bit with trading Kennedy to Sydney but they had enough of his "type" so did the deal.

[Remi Moses]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

That Hawthorn trading is very hit and miss as was their recruiting.They got lucky in 08 as the cats fluffed their lines.One thing that stands out is they recruited Franklin and that's the difference. Sydney have been outstanding and haven't bottomed out and have addressed their needs( mumford , Richards, Kennedy and have fixed a glaring weakness in outside run in drafting Jetta and Rohan. The question remains though are Sydney going to remain thereabouts or are they good enough for a flag tilt?

[westdog54]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

Mitchell & Ellis?

Hawks were good at trading out also - Rawlings, Hay, Croad. They missed a bit with trading Kennedy to Sydney but they had enough of his "type" so did the deal.

IIRC Mitchell was a rookie elevation. They commited daylight robbery with Hay, Rawlings, well, we know, and Croad got them Luke Hodge. Good examples

[Cyberdoggie]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

I think you absolutely need to do both, problem is we really haven't been that good at trading for up and comers or mid aged players looking for a new start.

I know it's getting old now but remember Rawlings and Street?.

We seem to be doing ok in the draft and rookie selections now but we certainly have to beef up our mid aged stock. We'll lose a lot of senior players in a couple of years and I don't see a lot of leadership in mid aged tier with the few that we have.

[GVGjr]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

I think you absolutely need to do both, problem is we really haven't been that good at trading for up and comers or mid aged players looking for a new start.

I know it's getting old now but remember Rawlings and Street?.

We seem to be doing ok in the draft and rookie selections now but we certainly have to beef up our mid aged stock. We'll lose a lot of senior players in a couple of years and I don't see a lot of leadership in mid aged tier with the few that we have.

I get why we went for Rawlings but Street was a poor selection. Be that as it may, it should be more around getting players that can take us forward not just about filling some holes.

Our problem in comparison to some other clubs is that we don't really go hard at trades or at positioning ourselves to move up or down the draft order. We seem to maintain the status quo and just hope that some players will out perform to the position we draft them. We seem to be a club proud about our record with rookie list elevations more than one that targets players we absolutely need.

The Hawks have a highly rated team with their foot skills because it seems to be a prerequisite with their drafting and trading. They also seem to have a plan for every draft and every trade period whereas other sides consistently just top up.

I'm not sure what the answer is but I think we can learn a lot from the way other clubs approach the trade period and the way they build their list at the draft table.

[GVGjr]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

With Alan Joyce at the helm I think the way we approached the 1995 draft was worth a shot.

http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=1953

[GVGjr]

Re: List Management - Hawthorn

IIRC Mitchell was a rookie elevation. They commited daylight robbery with Hay, Rawlings, well, we know, and Croad got them Luke Hodge. Good examples

It was a combination of Croad and McPharlin