2023/24 - Australia Summer of Cricket

[GVGjr]

Re: 2023/24 - Australia Summer of Cricket

Hasn't it always been circumstantial? Khawaja, Watson, S Marsh, Katich, Langer, David Boon - even all the way back to Bob Simpson.

But often those moves were done at times when the talent level at the top of the order was questionable. Nearly all of those guys were legit #3 so not a huge move. Not many of them were 34 years of age when the move was made and with the team performing so well.

It's not a bad move but I didn't quite but Bailey's reasoning.

[lemmon]

Re: 2023/24 - Australia Summer of Cricket

But often those moves were done at times when the talent level at the top of the order was questionable. Nearly all of those guys were legit #3 so not a huge move. Not many of them were 34 years of age when the move was made.

I'd say that's why they've made the same decision now.

The specialists they're picking from average 25 (Harris), 26 (Bancroft) and 29 (Renshaw) at Test match level and Renshaw is the only one of those guys yet to hit 30. The talent pool is questionable - if someone like Will Pucovski has a strong recent body of work, I doubt we'd see the same decision made.

I'd say it's pretty tough to not consider Steve Smith a genuine number 3 when he's made 8 centuries from that spot, averages 67 and only shifted to accommodate Marnus.

Also not sure age comes into play - this doesn't feel like a decision made for the long term and Khawja, Watson and Katich were all well into their 30s when the selectors shifted them up the order.

Ideally it would be a specialist if there was a good one hanging around, but I don't think this selection panel is the first to prioritise squeezing your best batters in over picking defined openers.

[Grantysghost]

Re: 2023/24 - Australia Summer of Cricket

Hasn't it always been circumstantial? Khawaja, Watson, S Marsh, Katich, Langer, David Boon - even all the way back to Bob Simpson.

Yallop, Wayne Phillips!

[Sedat]

Re: 2023/24 - Australia Summer of Cricket

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Smith at the top of the order. It feels like he's been battling for motivation for a while, he's done it all in the game and there's just a feeling that he needs a new challenge. I also think that when Smith walks to the wicket, opposition captains put in 'Steve Smith' fields - blocking off one side of the ground, bowling tight lines and making him create scoring opportunities.

I think Smith at the top gives him the chance to get out of a rut and also means he starts his innings against orthodox, attacking fields. He can be a bit of a knicker, which will be the challenge with some extra bounce against the new ball, but you could poke holes in the game of everyone vying for that opening spot.

If we can get an extra 3 years of Steve Smith averaging 45 opening the batting, while integrating Green and making him a pillar of the side, I think it's as good an outcome as you could hope for. I wonder if the alternative spoken about behind the scenes was Steve Smith retiring earlier than we'd all have liked.

I don't think it's necessarily a question of Steve Smith's runs at 4 versus Steve Smith's runs at 1. I think it's more about extending Steve Smith's time at international level while also bedding a generational talent into the side.

My worry on Smith opening is that he has an eye like a dead fish that has over-compensated for his unusual technique, and when he loses that his game will fall apart and quickly.

Neil Wagner is not an express paceman but even he caused Smith problems a couple of years ago with the short stuff, which has continued in patches since then. Even the best batsman of short-pitched bowling I've seen in the last 30 years, Ponting, struggled with the short stuff when he lost his eye late in his career.

It reeks a little of flirting with a stable and successful batting line-up. I'm also not quite as bullish on Green making it as a top 6 batsman as other are. He has flaws in his game that have been exposed at test level and don't get talked about as much because he can bowl and is also a brilliant gully fielder.

[D Mitchell]

Re: 2023/24 - Australia Summer of Cricket

Smith's never been the same since the sandpaper incident. Before, his batting was elite. now, it looks to lack concentration. Opening might just be what brings him back to that of which he is capable.

[Grantysghost]

Re: 2023/24 - Australia Summer of Cricket

My worry on Smith opening is that he has an eye like a dead fish that has over-compensated for his unusual technique, and when he loses that his game will fall apart and quickly.

Neil Wagner is not an express paceman but even he caused Smith problems a couple of years ago with the short stuff, which has continued in patches since then. Even the best batsman of short-pitched bowling I've seen in the last 30 years, Ponting, struggled with the short stuff when he lost his eye late in his career.

It reeks a little of flirting with a stable and successful batting line-up. I'm also not quite as bullish on Green making it as a top 6 batsman as other are. He has flaws in his game that have been exposed at test level and don't get talked about as much because he can bowl and is also a brilliant gully fielder.

Spot on, he picks up the line and length so quickly and it covers for his atrocious technique.

I'd say it's been going for a bit. Opening seems like a desperate attempt to stay relevant.

[GVGjr]

Re: 2023/24 - Australia Summer of Cricket

I'd say that's why they've made the same decision now.

The specialists they're picking from average 25 (Harris), 26 (Bancroft) and 29 (Renshaw) at Test match level and Renshaw is the only one of those guys yet to hit 30. The talent pool is questionable - if someone like Will Pucovski has a strong recent body of work, I doubt we'd see the same decision made.

I'd say it's pretty tough to not consider Steve Smith a genuine number 3 when he's made 8 centuries from that spot, averages 67 and only shifted to accommodate Marnus.

Also not sure age comes into play - this doesn't feel like a decision made for the long term and Khawja, Watson and Katich were all well into their 30s when the selectors shifted them up the order.

Ideally it would be a specialist if there was a good one hanging around, but I don't think this selection panel is the first to prioritise squeezing your best batters in over picking defined openers.

I don't mind the suggestion of moving Smith to the top of the order but if the Harris, Bancroft and Renshaw trio haven't done enough to earn a spot then what does it say about the shield and why is Renshaw the floating batsman?

I don't think the captain of any National team has the say that Cummins currently has but given the way we have performed perhaps it's a reasonable position.
It used to be that on overseas tours the captain was added to the selection committee but even George Bailey admitted that the Smith move to the top of the order was a Ronnie, Pat and my decision.

[whythelongface]

Re: 2023/24 - Australia Summer of Cricket

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Smith at the top of the order. It feels like he's been battling for motivation for a while, he's done it all in the game and there's just a feeling that he needs a new challenge. I also think that when Smith walks to the wicket, opposition captains put in 'Steve Smith' fields - blocking off one side of the ground, bowling tight lines and making him create scoring opportunities.

I think Smith at the top gives him the chance to get out of a rut and also means he starts his innings against orthodox, attacking fields. He can be a bit of a knicker, which will be the challenge with some extra bounce against the new ball, but you could poke holes in the game of everyone vying for that opening spot.

If we can get an extra 3 years of Steve Smith averaging 45 opening the batting, while integrating Green and making him a pillar of the side, I think it's as good an outcome as you could hope for. I wonder if the alternative spoken about behind the scenes was Steve Smith retiring earlier than we'd all have liked.

I don't think it's necessarily a question of Steve Smith's runs at 4 versus Steve Smith's runs at 1. I think it's more about extending Steve Smith's time at international level while also bedding a generational talent into the side.

I hear what you are saying and in that context it makes sense. However it is disappointing from both a performance and specialist batting perspective. The overlooking of Bancroft indicates that selectors don?t rate specialist positions and are more open to an experimental batting line up. Both Smith and Green may succeed against the likes of the Windies - (maybe Roach and Joseph may trouble them) thus the decision may pay off this instance but I would question it against an English or Indian pace attack (on their turf).

The decision does question the need to perform in Shield cricket to get rewarded.
The decision indicates that we have our top 8 batters and will work the order around them. I still think that there is a need for specialist batters but can see why the selectors are open to this approach.

[GVGjr]

Re: 2023/24 - Australia Summer of Cricket

I hear what you are saying and in that context it makes sense. However it is disappointing from both a performance and specialist batting perspective. The overlooking of Bancroft indicates that selectors don?t rate specialist positions and are more open to an experimental batting line up. Both Smith and Green may succeed against the likes of the Windies - (maybe Roach and Joseph may trouble them) thus the decision may pay off this instance but I would question it against an English or Indian pace attack (on their turf).

The decision does question the need to perform in Shield cricket to get rewarded.
The decision indicates that we have our top 8 batters and will work the order around them. I still think that there is a need for specialist batters but can see why the selectors are open to this approach.

It's really not hard to believe there is at least a perception issue in from of the way we select teams.
Cam Green gets injured and replaced by Mitch Marsh. I question if Marsh is much of an all rounder anyway given he's hasn't bowled much in recent years and why was he was actually in the touring side? So after one good score by Marsh who deserves full credit for grasping his chance, Green is on the outer and has to bide his time but ironically now he is now seen as the player to bat at #4.
Marsh has been sensational and it's impossible to argue otherwise but I suspect his initial inclusion in the touring side of England was in a lot of ways based on the 'good bloke' principle than any real noticeable performances.
He hasn't done much in traditional formats of the games for a while now.

The selectors clearly ignore form when it suits them and disregard the notion that there are specialists at the test level.

[Sedat]

Re: 2023/24 - Australia Summer of Cricket

It's really not hard to believe there is at least a perception issue in from of the way we select teams.
Cam Green gets injured and replaced by Mitch Marsh. I question if Marsh is much of an all rounder anyway given he's hasn't bowled much in recent years and why was he was actually in the touring side? So after one good score by Marsh who deserves full credit for grasping his chance, Green is on the outer and has to bide his time but ironically now he is now seen as the player to bat at #4.
Marsh has been sensational and it's impossible to argue otherwise but I suspect his initial inclusion in the touring side of England was in a lot of ways based on the 'good bloke' principle than any real noticeable performances.
He hasn't done much in traditional formats of the games for a while now.

The selectors clearly ignore form when it suits them and disregard the notion that there are specialists at the test level.

All the above is true, but the ends always justify the means when it comes to Australian cricket. At least Marsh was a genuine like-for-like batting all-rounder replacement for Green, and it's hard to criticise the decision now as Marsh has been a far better and more impactful test all-rounder (in both disciplines) than Green was in the previous 6 months or so before Marsh replaced him in England.

The FC and test averages of Bancroft, Harris and Renshaw are all remarkably similar (and to be honest Dunkley fajita bland). All have played 10-15 tests each, average around mid to high 20's at test level, and high 30's at FC level - nothing to get particularly excited about and it's a pretty decent sample size for all 3. Notwithstanding Bancroft's excellent last 18 months, they aren't absolutely beating the door down like Hayden, Hussey, Langer, Martyn and others in the past had to for years on end in order to get a call-up. So it is not a stretch for the selectors to assert now that Bancroft in particular was snubbed based on performance alone, and that it had nothing to do with what he said about the bowlers knowing the tactics during Sandpaper-gate. Of course that is pure horseshit, because everybody knows he would now be in the test team after his excellent last 18 months if he didn't make those comments.

[GVGjr]

Re: 2023/24 - Australia Summer of Cricket

All the above is true, but the ends always justify the means when it comes to Australian cricket. At least Marsh was a genuine like-for-like batting all-rounder replacement for Green, and it's hard to criticise the decision now as Marsh has been a far better and more impactful test all-rounder (in both disciplines) than Green was in the previous 6 months or so before Marsh replaced him in England.

It's worked out brilliantly but I question what criteria they used to achieve that. Remember Marsh has bowled very few overs since he returned to the team, he's no all-rounder now. He's a batsman who bowls a few overs when fit. Green only played when he could bowl.
I'm a fan of Green but if his form wasn't great before his injury, and the stats support that, then what has he done since to earn the chance at the even more prestigious #4 spot?

The FC and test averages of Bancroft, Harris and Renshaw are all remarkably similar (and to be honest Dunkley fajita bland). All have played 10-15 tests each, average around mid to high 20's at test level, and high 30's at FC level - nothing to get particularly excited about and it's a pretty decent sample size for all 3. Notwithstanding Bancroft's excellent last 18 months, they aren't absolutely beating the door down like Hayden, Hussey, Langer, Martyn and others in the past had to for years on end in order to get a call-up. So it is not a stretch for the selectors to assert now that Bancroft in particular was snubbed based on performance alone, and that it had nothing to do with what he said about the bowlers knowing the tactics during Sandpaper-gate. Of course that is pure horseshit, because everybody knows he would now be in the test team after his excellent last 18 months if he didn't make those comments.

On top of that, the talk from Bailey was that they like that Renshaw can bat in a number of spots which doesn't seem a legit reason outside of the requirements for a touring team squad.

[Sedat]

Re: 2023/24 - Australia Summer of Cricket

It's worked out brilliantly but I question what criteria they used to achieve that. Remember Marsh has bowled very few overs since he returned to the team, he's no all-rounder now. He's a batsman who bowls a few overs when fit. Green only played when he could bowl.
I'm a fan of Green but if his form wasn't great before his injury, and the stats support that, then what has he done since to earn the chance at the even more prestigious #4 spot?



On top of that, the talk from Bailey was that they like that Renshaw can bat in a number of spots which doesn't seem a legit reason outside of the requirements for a touring team squad.

100% agree on both especially the Renshaw comments, which was pure unadulterated horseshit from George Bailey. Trying to understand the rationale/criteria used by Australian cricket selectors is an exercise in futility.

Renshaw is actually doing himself no favours by trying to please his masters and be flexible to play multiple positions. He should open for Qld and focus solely on smashing out the runs for a good 12-18 months and get his FC average up to mid 40's. He will then get an extended run as opener in the test team (when Khawaja retires).

[lemmon]

Re: 2023/24 - Australia Summer of Cricket

It's worked out brilliantly but I question what criteria they used to achieve that. Remember Marsh has bowled very few overs since he returned to the team, he's no all-rounder now. He's a batsman who bowls a few overs when fit. Green only played when he could bowl.
I'm a fan of Green but if his form wasn't great before his injury, and the stats support that, then what has he done since to earn the chance at the even more prestigious #4 spot?



On top of that, the talk from Bailey was that they like that Renshaw can bat in a number of spots which doesn't seem a legit reason outside of the requirements for a touring team squad.

I think that's a fair comment - but there's really no one else and Green's outstanding Shield record is undeniable. Leading middle order run scorers this year are:
-McSweeney - good player, selectors love him, but he's only averaging 45 this year and his first class average is sub 40
-Beau Webster - bats six for Tas, not international standard
-Charlie Wakim - averaging 40 this year, I don't think he's a Test player
-Handscomb - averaging 35 this year and yet to make a Shield ton

The only real option if we are picking on Shield form is Bancroft, BUT that ignores the rest of his body of recent work. Of Harris, Renshaw and Bancroft, Bancroft actually has the worst First Class average since Jan 2021 (41 whereas Harris and Renshaw both average 43) because he has been poor in County Cricket and for Australia A.

The bulk of Green's runs have come at number 4 for Western Australia and I think that's where he settles for Australia as well. He hasn't played Shield recently through no fault of his own, but he has 8 tons in the comp and an average over 50 at 24 years old, the numbers are outstanding.

I think he's clearly Australia's blue-chip batting prospect for the next decade so I think bedding him in now is absolutely the right decision.

If we are talking about picking on Shield form and rewarding runs, Renshaw shouldn't be near the squad. But again, happy with that decision as I think on talent, he's at the level and this is a team that needs to start planning for the future.

[lemmon]

Re: 2023/24 - Australia Summer of Cricket

Renshaw is actually doing himself no favours by trying to please his masters and be flexible to play multiple positions. He should open for Qld and focus solely on smashing out the runs for a good 12-18 months and get his FC average up to mid 40's. He will then get an extended run as opener in the test team (when Khawaja retires).

I don't think it's really been his decision at Queensland. He had a really poor run of form a few years ago and was out of their side entirely. Bryce Street replaced him and made really good runs (won their player of the year), and Joe Burns has had a place in that side sewn up for years. Renshaw's only real path back to the side was through the middle order, though he's been back up the top with Street out of the side.

I'm a huge Renshaw fan, but he needs to get out of Queensland and be the 'main man' somewhere. That full-strength Queensland batting line-up is ridiculous and it takes a lot of pressure off. I'd love to see him go to NSW or Victoria and do what Bancroft's done over the last two Shield seasons. I think Renshaw really needs a 1000-run, dominant season to be taken more seriously.

[Sedat]

Re: 2023/24 - Australia Summer of Cricket

I don't think it's really been his decision at Queensland. He had a really poor run of form a few years ago and was out of their side entirely. Bryce Street replaced him and made really good runs (won their player of the year), and Joe Burns has had a place in that side sewn up for years. Renshaw's only real path back to the side was through the middle order, though he's been back up the top with Street out of the side.

I'm a huge Renshaw fan, but he needs to get out of Queensland and be the 'main man' somewhere. That full-strength Queensland batting line-up is ridiculous and it takes a lot of pressure off. I'd love to see him go to NSW or Victoria and do what Bancroft's done over the last two Shield seasons. I think Renshaw really needs a 1000-run, dominant season to be taken more seriously.

Agree with that if he can't cement his place at Qld as opener. I just think his skill set is better suited to opening, and that the chopping and changing around the order in the last couple of years hasn't helped his game at all. At 27yo, he has time on his side but the next 2 years are critical.