Tough years ahead for us.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I'm seeing a real similarity to our side of the mid 80's in our side. Using modern footy parlance the selectors are fast approaching the time where they must decide whether to try and recapture a glory that is increasingly behind us using ageing players, or we bite the bullet and accept we need to rebuild via youth.

As we saw though following our nadir in 1986, it took us a good 7 years until we were a very good cricket team and 9 years in total to climb to the top again. For mine, Australia did not become the number 1 team again until we conquered the Windies on their home soil in 1995.

We have the bulk of our team in their mid 30's, and our best test bowlers of the past 12 months statistically in Bollinger and Johnson are both 29.
Of our current team who will still be in their peak in 18 months? Maybe only Watson, Clarke & Siddle.

The decline will be complete should we lose this Ashes series, and surely will see a raft of changes being made over the coming 12-24 months.

My concern is where are the 20-23 year olds that we had come through with the likes of Steve & Mark Waugh, Taylor, Hayden, Langer, Martyn, Warne, McGrath, Ponting, etc when we climbed back off the mat the last time we rebuilt our Test side? We also had a number of young guys through this period pushing the regulars constantly for their spots, Lehmann, Blewett, Bevan, Hodge & Fleming come to mind.

When I look at the Shield teams today there doesn't seem at first glance to be these young tyro's coming through with the same regularity as we saw in the late 80's to mid 90's?
I've noticed that alot of our Under 19 stars seem to struggle upon getting into the first class system. Henriques springs to mind as one who was earmarked for fame from the Youth team, but is now mid 20's and hasn't really done a great deal with either bat or ball consistently.

From a batting sence the only young guys pushing for selection are Khawaja and at times Phil Hughes.
I hear good things about Alex Keath, but he's yet to debut.

Keeping wise I guess it's going to be Paine and possibly Wade pushing each other.

Our potential young fast bowling stocks looks promising with, Starc, Hazlewood, James Pattinson and George showing some good signs.

However it has to be a concern that Hazelwood and James Pattinson both have been struck down with back stress fractures which will set them back for some time.

Most worrying for me is that the quality spinner cupboard is all but bare. Again showing a similarity to the mid 80's until Warne's emergence in 91.

Tough years ahead, or am I being too critical of our youthful talent stock coming through?

[chef]

Re: Tough years ahead for us.

It's not all doom and gloom IMO

Watson
Hughes
Khawaja
Clarke/Madinson
Ferguson/S.Smith
White/M.Marsh
Paine
O'Keefe
Siddle
Bollinger
Hilf/Starc/George/Patinson/Hazelwood/Cameron

There's plenty of talent around.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Tough years ahead for us.

I'm with YHA. It will take a while to rebuild the side. What shits me is the sooner they start the sooner it happens. You are more accepting of a loss if it's a inexperienced side and not what we have now.

[GVGjr]

Re: Tough years ahead for us.

YHF, Good thread.

Whilst I agree that there will be some tough years ahead of us I believe the main problem is that our domestic competition is filled by too many players that can never represent Australia and unless some states become more national focused we will struggle to give our best up and coming players enough chances. NSW fuel Australian cricket because they have a better approach to team selection and we need other states to follow that lead.
Whilst guys like Wright, Harwood, Cleary and Darren Pattinson are great backups to McKay, Siddle and James Pattinson but they offer nothing from a national perspective. It's a fine line between keeping the Shield cricket strong but also maintaining a national focus and I think some states need to keep that in mind.

Regarding the spinners I actually think we have some depth there:

- Krejza could still play a role at the national level and given he can really turn the ball I'd like to see him given a chance to tour places like India again.

- Hauritz is still a contender for a test spot and I like the way he responded to his omission and I don't believe he is lost to us as a test cricketer.

- O'Keefe is has a great chance to establish himself as a quality spin bowler but he might need to move states to further enhance his chances. Handy with the bats as well which opens up the options of being a 2nd spinner.

- Doherty could very well be the limited over spin bowler and he should be able to improve his bowling if he stays in the test side

- Smiths bowling will improve but he needs to make it as a batsman where his bowling would be a bonus.

- Norths a decent off spin bowler and it's a shame his batting is so inconsistent.

I was listening to Ashley Mallet the other day and he is still a huge supporter for Dan Cullen who just can't even get a run in the SA side. He still believes he is the best off spinner in Australia. Are SA even playing spinners?

Regarding players like Henriques not coming on I think the best thing for him would be to move interstate where he could bat in the top 5 and get some more bowling when he is fit.
Perhaps some ODI games would really develop him as a national prospect.

With the pace bowlers we have a number of good young options and I think the selectors have been trying to fast track them with Starc, George and Pattinson really looking like they could take another step forward.

Our wicket keeping ranks are good as well with Paine and Wade as the standouts

Ferguson, Khawaja, Maddison and Marsh are all exciting batting prospects.

As I said at the start, I agree that we are in for some tough times but if the Shield cricket selectors modify their approach, and we can shuffle some good players to other states to create more opportunities AND providing the national selectors lift their standards we might get back on track a lot quicker.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Re: Tough years ahead for us.

YHF, Good thread.

Whilst I agree that there will be some tough years ahead of us I believe the main problem is that our domestic competition is filled by too many players that can never represent Australia and unless some states become more national focused we will struggle to give our best up and coming players enough chances. NSW fuel Australian cricket because they have a better approach to team selection and we need other states to follow that lead.
Whilst guys like Wright, Harwood, Cleary and Darren Pattinson are great backups to McKay, Siddle and James Pattinson but they offer nothing from a national perspective. It's a fine line between keeping the Shield cricket strong but also maintaining a national focus and I think some states need to keep that in mind.

I believe you have hit the nail completely on the head GVGjr, somewhere in the last 10 years there has been a paradigm shift in the way our domestic competition is run. Until recently it had sought and found the perfect balance between being a finishing school for our younger cricketers whilst still maintaining the integrity of being the best First Class domestic league in the world.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Re: Tough years ahead for us.

GVGjr, with regard to your point about spinners, the interesting thing to me is there are no leggies coming through.
Historically we have not had in my life time many successful finger spinners. In my life time only Tim May, & Bruce Yardley springs to mind, and just before my time Ashley Mallett. I don't count Greg Matthews as a successful Test spinner personally.

Of the list you have come up with only Krejza and O'Keefe really turn the ball significantly. Cullen used to, and I had really high hopes for him but for whatever reason he is stagnating.
Krejza worries me in that he doesn't seem to be able to solve his biggest problem in being able to bowl defensively at times.

We really need the versatility of a leggie (not a leftie Chinaman either) coming through and I cannot think of one. I really thought that Warnie's biggest legacy would be that right about now there would be a number of Warne inspired guys bowling leg spin. If they are out there, our Shield system is doing a great job of keeping them hidden.

[GVGjr]

Re: Tough years ahead for us.

I believe you have hit the nail completely on the head GVGjr, somewhere in the last 10 years there has been a paradigm shift in the way our domestic competition is run. Until recently it had sought and found the perfect balance between being a finishing school for our younger cricketers whilst still maintaining the integrity of being the best First Class domestic league in the world.

Have a look at the contrast between NSW and Victorian cricket from a National perspective.
How tempting would it be to include Bracken and Lee in the side along with Clark who's the captain instead of the likes of Starc, Hazelwood, Copeland and Cameron but NSW see the bigger picture and keep regularly selecting younger guys. The Vics have had a few national call-ups and some injuries so immediately look at Wright, D.Pattinson and Harwood. Even though these guys are good bowlers to me it also means the depth of Victorian cricket can't be that flash.

We need probably O'Keefe and Henriques to move interstate and see if they can take their game to another level.

[Greystache]

Re: Tough years ahead for us.

GVGjr, with regard to your point about spinners, the interesting thing to me is there are no leggies coming through.
Historically we have not had in my life time many successful finger spinners. In my life time only Tim May, & Bruce Yardley springs to mind, and just before my time Ashley Mallett. I don't count Greg Matthews as a successful Test spinner personally.

Of the list you have come up with only Krejza and O'Keefe really turn the ball significantly. Cullen used to, and I had really high hopes for him but for whatever reason he is stagnating.
Krejza worries me in that he doesn't seem to be able to solve his biggest problem in being able to bowl defensively at times.

We really need the versatility of a leggie (not a leftie Chinaman either) coming through and I cannot think of one. I really thought that Warnie's biggest legacy would be that right about now there would be a number of Warne inspired guys bowling leg spin. If they are out there, our Shield system is doing a great job of keeping them hidden.

The state systems are killing young leg spinners almost the moment they come through. I hear the same comment from senior figures every time a leg spinner comes along who can actually spin the ball and take wickets- "too slow through the air", and that's the end of them, they won't be considered fo higher honours unless they completely change their game and start bowling flat and stop turning it.

It's rediculous and it's killing the art but it looks unlikely to change.

[Bulldog Joe]

Re: Tough years ahead for us.

One of the problems for development has actually been the amount of money in the system. It is keeping older players in the game longer and denying opportunity to the younger players.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Re: Tough years ahead for us.

One of the problems for development has actually been the amount of money in the system. It is keeping older players in the game longer and denying opportunity to the younger players.

No doubt that hasn't helped. And related to that is the cash on offer for each with domestic 20/20 comps in addition to the lucrative world 20/20 club challenge comp. No doubt each states administration wants to challenge for the money on offer and this makes it a harder decision for states to either pull the pin on the career of a veteran who they think will perform over a young untried kid.

I remember in the early to mid 80's there were still a number of older guys going around, like John Inverarity, Craig Searjent, Wayne Prior, Mick Malone, Gary Cosier, Trev Chappell, Thommo, Harry Frei, Bob Holland, Paul Hibbert, Ian Callen & Ian Carmichael. But in equal measure there were young guys like Boonie, Steve Waugh, Simon O'Donnell, Andrew Zesers, Tim May, Dennis Hickey, Mark Taylor, Sam Parkinson, Dirk Tazelaar, Rob Kerr, Jamie Siddons, Steve Smith, Dave Gilbert, Bruce Reid, Merv Hughes, Dean Jones, Chris Matthews, Dirk Wellham, Mike Veletta, Craig McDermott, Tony Dodemaide, Michael Dimmatina & Rod McCurdy getting regular state games, and at one time or another they were all either given a chance for Australia or were mentioned as potential test players.
I just don't see the same number of young guys getting enough chances at state cricket these days, and I agree with you & GVGjr that somewhere along the way Australian crickets priorities at the State - ands perhaps extending to Grade - level have skewed to far towards the short term.

Perhaps the structures for how money filters to States need to be looked at by Australian Cricket Board, and geared more towards rewarding those States who take a chance at developing their youth. Maybe extra inducements need to be looked at that make it an attractive proposition for states to take a chance at giving kids a regular chance. Perhaps a large financial incentive needs to be provided as a carrot for States who develop successful kids?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Re: Tough years ahead for us.

The state systems are killing young leg spinners almost the moment they come through. I hear the same comment from senior figures every time a leg spinner comes along who can actually spin the ball and take wickets- "too slow through the air", and that's the end of them, they won't be considered fo higher honours unless they completely change their game and start bowling flat and stop turning it.

It's rediculous and it's killing the art but it looks unlikely to change.

That sounds insane? And I wonder if these so called senior figures are basing this on the shortest form of the game? If so then it is yet another reason why I deplore 20/20 cricket.
Macgill wasn't the quickest through the air, and whilst Warney would at times vary his speed considerably, both of these guys were slower through the air than a guy like Kumble.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Re: Tough years ahead for us.

Have a look at the contrast between NSW and Victorian cricket from a National perspective.
How tempting would it be to include Bracken and Lee in the side along with Clark who's the captain instead of the likes of Starc, Hazelwood, Copeland and Cameron but NSW see the bigger picture and keep regularly selecting younger guys. The Vics have had a few national call-ups and some injuries so immediately look at Wright, D.Pattinson and Harwood. Even though these guys are good bowlers to me it also means the depth of Victorian cricket can't be that flash.

We need probably O'Keefe and Henriques to move interstate and see if they can take their game to another level.

Agree again wholeheartedly. It pains me somewhat to say it, but NSW have had a long history of promoting young talent very quickly and giving them enough chances. Which is why I don't cry foul when all of a sudden the bulk of our Test Team comes from there.
From as far back as I can remember (to the early 80's) they've always given kids a chance early, from Mark Taylor, Steve & Mark Waugh, Michael Slater, Glenn McGrath, to Michael Clarke, Phil Hughes, Hazlewood, Cockley, Starc, Copeland, Maddinson, & Khawaja.

[GVGjr]

Re: Tough years ahead for us.

YHF,

I was listening to SEN this morning, as they have a cricket show each morning of the test, and they mentioned how the Vics had recruited too many older players from other states rather than developing the younger guys and how that approach doesn't suit the overall national team. I think they might have been reading the discussions on this thread

[Greystache]

Re: Tough years ahead for us.

That sounds insane? And I wonder if these so called senior figures are basing this on the shortest form of the game? If so then it is yet another reason why I deplore 20/20 cricket.
Macgill wasn't the quickest through the air, and whilst Warney would at times vary his speed considerably, both of these guys were slower through the air than a guy like Kumble.

It's been that way for over 10 years so it's not 20/20 specific, but the limited overs format certainly plays a part. The thinking is if you're not fast through the air you'll be too easy for the batsmen to get down the pitch and get. Personally if I can spin the ball a large amount that's exactly what I want the batsmen doing, but supposedly it's a bad thing.

Warne and Macgill bowled perfectly for test cricket, good flight, varying pace, and being able to really spin the ball. It's no co-incidence they came through 15-20 years ago because I suspect now neither of them would've got into the state system unless they changed their style.

[FrediKanoute]

Re: Tough years ahead for us.

The other thing that really hurts Australian cricekt is the benign state of our wickets. They just aren't challenging. What is the point in producing tracks that are so flat it inflates the ability of the batsmen? No wonder guys like Trott and Cook are clobbering our bowlers. When there is no sideways movement and the ball doesn't bounce after the shine has gone its like batting on concrete against a tennis ball!