Gold Coast Suns - Scott Clayton

[Dogs 24/7]

When compared to the way Greater Western Sydney set up their list management the Gold Coast Suns have failed miserably. We can blame injuries, Guy McKenna, The AFL, a less than satisfactory culture or even Karmichael Hunt but I'm constantly amazed why Scott Clayton and Dom Ambrogio escape the level of scrutiny they should.

Clayton has had a wealth of early selections since the Suns arrived and just isn't performing at an acceptable level. They have missed on so many selections and list management decisions I'm wondering why he still has a job?

There must be a reason why he has survived but it's lost on me. Does anyone have any insight to why he is still at the Suns?

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Gold Coast Suns - Scott Clayton

I couldn't agree with you more. I was explaining this to the Mrs just yesterday in comparing the new plastic teams. The culture issues can be blamed on McKenna and Hunt's influence, but that's as far as it goes. But their recruiting looks inept compared to GWS, and now the issue has been raised on WOOF expect to see an article in the media this week!

[Flamethrower]

Re: Gold Coast Suns - Scott Clayton

You can't compare the 2 franchises. While the Suns got a good head start, especially compared to the way the Bears were set up, the Giants have gifted "instant" success. They were gifted 4 extra pre draft selections (Jesse Hogan, Jack Martin, Jaeger O'Meara and Brad Crouch) which they converted into 7 first round picks. That allowed them to dominate consecutive drafts.
Since then they have traded former top picks Tom Boyd and Adam Treloar for further 1st round selections.

Fortunately for the rest of the competition they had 2 huges misses - Marcus Bontempelli & Jake Stringer could have also been Giants.

[Twodogs]

Re: Gold Coast Suns - Scott Clayton

You can't compare the 2 franchises. While the Suns got a good head start, especially compared to the way the Bears were set up, the Giants have gifted "instant" success. They were gifted 4 extra pre draft selections (Jesse Hogan, Jack Martin, Jaeger O'Meara and Brad Crouch) which they converted into 7 first round picks. That allowed them to dominate consecutive drafts.
Since then they have traded former top picks Tom Boyd and Adam Treloar for further 1st round selections.

Fortunately for the rest of the competition they had 2 huges misses - Marcus Bontempelli & Jake Stringer could have also been Giants.

Different drafts too.

[Bornadog]

Re: Gold Coast Suns - Scott Clayton

It is not just about picking the right guys for the team, surely the coaching and development plays an important role as well.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Gold Coast Suns - Scott Clayton

You can't compare the 2 franchises. While the Suns got a good head start, especially compared to the way the Bears were set up, the Giants have gifted "instant" success. They were gifted 4 extra pre draft selections (Jesse Hogan, Jack Martin, Jaeger O'Meara and Brad Crouch) which they converted into 7 first round picks. That allowed them to dominate consecutive drafts.
Since then they have traded former top picks Tom Boyd and Adam Treloar for further 1st round selections.

Fortunately for the rest of the competition they had 2 huges misses - Marcus Bontempelli & Jake Stringer could have also been Giants.

GWS overlooked Chad Wingard too. They also traded up in numerous drafts (Jaksch, O'Rourke etc). But they seemed to have targeted different types of players in their recruitment compared to GCS. They got gifted GAJ and a string of decent players (Bock, Harbrow etc) and a heap of picks up the top end of the draft and got good compo from Caddy, Dixon and others too. I can't give them a pass, and especially their recruiting because GWS got a bit more. They were given all the components to succeed, and 'win a premiership within 3 years' so their CEO said. I always thought GWS would be the first to teeter to the brink of closure, but GCS look on the fast track to doom. Not even Jarrad Grant could turn the place around, and that's saying something

[GVGjr]

Re: Gold Coast Suns - Scott Clayton

It is not just about picking the right guys for the team, surely the coaching and development plays an important role as well.

I think that point and a couple of others were addressed in the opening post. I guess the question is do you think Clayton has done well with the picks he has had and compare that to GWS?

There has to be some questions about how effective the GC recruiting team have been. There is no doubt they have selected some great players but a few too many of them have fallen short in the good character assessment and some just never measured up.

Clayton will have a job for life if the blame simply lays at the coaches etc which is fine by me but if I supported the Suns I'd be asking the question of how effective he has been. I know I questioned his list management approach with us leading into the compromised drafts and the fact we had some early pick father son commitments. I'm still convinced he got a lot wrong for us in his last 2 or 3 seasons.
He has received plenty of trade currency and early draft picks since being at the Suns so has he really done enough?

[Throughandthrough]

Re: Gold Coast Suns - Scott Clayton

GWS could win 5 of the next 7 premieships

GC could win a spoon or two in that time

[soupman]

Re: Gold Coast Suns - Scott Clayton

Just a quick analysis of the first 4/3 drafts for each club. Very different recruiting models, GC look to have had just as many talented pickups but unlike GWS they haven't come on as hoped. Also GC haven't cashed in on their trade value nearly as much as GWS have managed to. GWS though had a huge headstart, the mini draft effectively gave them pick 2 and 4 from GC alone, and allowed them to dominate drafts. I think GWS have had the worse misses, O'Rourke and Plowman at picks 2 and 3 is criminal, especially when they were soon followed by Stringer, Macrae and Wines who are all guns.

Here's a brief analysis, keep in mind when I was comparing to players the club missed i tried to be lenient after the top few picks as draft boards change drastically. ie. Parker was pick 40 in 2010, but I don't count him as a miss because it is unlikely GC were making the call between him and Taylor. In other words i am crediting late picks to the club that found thems good recruiting instead of blaming clubs for missing them.

Gold Coast:
2010 (initial): 1 Swallow, 2. Bennell, 3. Day, 7. Caddy, 9. Prestia, 10. Gorringe, 11. Lynch, 13. Tape, 39. Taylor, 49. Gilbee.
Most are sufficiently talented players now with only the two late picks not on a list, and a couple at different clubs now, although attitude and development issues have held back a few. Didn't miss out on much, just Heppell (who went at 8).
2011: 24. Schade + O'Meara (mini draft)
Nothing draft, just one mediocre player. O'Meara is a quality addition though that cost pick 4. Players around the mid 20's mark were Ross, Yeo and Brad Hill, although Schade seems ok.
2012: 13. "Lonergan, 58. Cameron + Martin (mini draft)
Martin cost pick 2, Lonergan could have been Corr but otherwise didn't really miss much.
2013: 5. Koladjashnij, 20. Leslie, 27 Lemmens
Did pretty well, KK the best available in his zone, not sure about Leslie and he was followed by M Crouch, McStay and Z Merrett who all look good, so maybe a miss. Lemmens could have been Taylor but Lemmens looks alright so not a big loss.

Actually a pretty good group of picks, almost always picking the best talent available at the picks they had. Unlike GWS lacked the sheer quantity of picks to dominate drafts aside from their first year, but tbf they were never in a position to get those picks once GWS came in with their headstart. Hard to dominate drafts when GWS already have picks 1,2,3 and are receiving more high picks for their high picks that have yet to come on.

GWS:
2011 (Initial): 1. Patton, 2. Coniglio, 3 Tyson, 4. Hoskin Elliot, 5. Buntine, 7. Haynes, 9. Tomlinson, 10. Sumner, 11. Greene, 13. Adams, 14. Smith, 56. Downie
Almost all are quality now either at GWS or elsewhere . Pretty awesome draft haul but it should be with 8 top 10 picks. Big miss on Wingard at 6 (although I remember rumours of him telling them he'd go home at the first opportunity). Otherwise they didn't really miss out on anything.
2012: 1. Whitfield, 2. O'Rourke, 3. Plowman, 12. Jaksch, 14. Corr, 27. Stewart,
Aside from their first and last two picks shit draft. Missed out on the 5,6,7 trio of Stringer, Macrae and Wines but Corr and Stewart were good picks for their parts of the draft.
2013: 1. Boyd, 2. Kelly, 14. McCarthy, 29. Lobb
First two picks are excellent but Bontempelli is a miss and Billings is pretty interchangeable with Kelly really. Nailed the McCarthy pick despite the homesickness, and Lobb a great get looking one of the best in his zone now.

Dominated drafts and generally picked the best player available, which is the idea when you have the picks they had. I think more credit for the list build goes to their trading team though, their ability to keep the players that are performing while trading away the "potential" guns for almost original value allowed them to strong arm other clubs out of the draft and just keep churning through high end talent.

In each of their first three drafts GWS only picked one player after pick 14, compared to GC who in the 2nd and 3rd draft had just 3 picks after the mini drafts with pick 13 being the highest.

I think part of the reason for GC's struggle has been that despite getting talent in, they have failed to develop it for whatever reasons. Also and this is a major difference, GC have given their players every chance to succeed with them before trading them, while GWS were happy to trade them out before any prolonged exposed form lessened their value. It is reasonable to assume that if GWS had the likes of Bennell, Gorringe and Dixon on their list they may have been gone years ago instead of last year for a much better return, while GC may have retained Tyson, Jaksch and Boyd until their value had've dropped. Sure many of those players initiated their move from GWS but GWS did not fight hard to keep them and instead set about getting great deals. Unfortunately they have also nailed the Treloar trade and look likely to get something awesome for McCarthy.

In summary GC stuffed up their recruiting because they were too heavily dependant on nailing the picks and developing the 2010 class, as every draft after that they faced the same issues as the rest of the comp, in that they couldn't get access to the more than one quality pick. This meant they had to have nailed their free agent and trade pickups, but unfortunately for them they targeted ready to go players that had little scope for improvement or are either retired or approaching it now in Bock, Brennan, Ablett, Harbrow etc.

GWS were given the world and have rather effortlessly turned one dominant draft into an indefinite amount by starving the rest of the comp of elite talent for two years, then drip feeding it back to them at exorbitant prices and continuing the cycle. They nailed their free agent pickups, getting players that would grow with the club like Ward, Davis and Scully who is finally playing as hoped. It says a lot about how good a club can have it when they can lose 5 top 10 picks from 3 of their 5 drafts and not appear to have even felt the hit, while we have had to nail the measly 4 top 20 picks we have had in that time to be talked about as talented enough to contend with them.

[soupman]

Re: Gold Coast Suns - Scott Clayton

Double post

[Twodogs]

Re: Gold Coast Suns - Scott Clayton

Just a quick analysis of the first 4/3 drafts for each club. Very different recruiting models, GC look to have had just as many talented pickups but unlike GWS they haven't come on as hoped. Also GC haven't cashed in on their trade value nearly as much as GWS have managed to. GWS though had a huge headstart, the mini draft effectively gave them pick 2 and 4 from GC alone, and allowed them to dominate drafts. I think GWS have had the worse misses, O'Rourke and Plowman at picks 2 and 3 is criminal, especially when they were soon followed by Stringer, Macrae and Wines who are all guns.

Here's a brief analysis, keep in mind when I was comparing to players the club missed i tried to be lenient after the top few picks as draft boards change drastically. ie. Parker was pick 40 in 2010, but I don't count him as a miss because it is unlikely GC were making the call between him and Taylor. In other words i am crediting late picks to the club that found thems good recruiting instead of blaming clubs for missing them.

Gold Coast:
2010 (initial): 1 Swallow, 2. Bennell, 3. Day, 7. Caddy, 9. Prestia, 10. Gorringe, 11. Lynch, 13. Tape, 39. Taylor, 49. Gilbee.
Most are sufficiently talented players now with only the two late picks not on a list, and a couple at different clubs now, although attitude and development issues have held back a few. Didn't miss out on much, just Heppell (who went at 8).
2011: 24. Schade + O'Meara (mini draft)
Nothing draft, just one mediocre player. O'Meara is a quality addition though that cost pick 4. Players around the mid 20's mark were Ross, Yeo and Brad Hill, although Schade seems ok.
2012: 13. "Lonergan, 58. Cameron + Martin (mini draft)
Martin cost pick 2, Lonergan could have been Corr but otherwise didn't really miss much.
2013: 5. Koladjashnij, 20. Leslie, 27 Lemmens
Did pretty well, KK the best available in his zone, not sure about Leslie and he was followed by M Crouch, McStay and Z Merrett who all look good, so maybe a miss. Lemmens could have been Taylor but Lemmens looks alright so not a big loss.

Actually a pretty good group of picks, almost always picking the best talent available at the picks they had. Unlike GWS lacked the sheer quantity of picks to dominate drafts aside from their first year, but tbf they were never in a position to get those picks once GWS came in with their headstart. Hard to dominate drafts when GWS already have picks 1,2,3 and are receiving more high picks for their high picks that have yet to come on.

GWS:
2011 (Initial): 1. Patton, 2. Coniglio, 3 Tyson, 4. Hoskin Elliot, 5. Buntine, 7. Haynes, 9. Tomlinson, 10. Sumner, 11. Greene, 13. Adams, 14. Smith, 56. Downie
Almost all are quality now either at GWS or elsewhere . Pretty awesome draft haul but it should be with 8 top 10 picks. Big miss on Wingard at 6 (although I remember rumours of him telling them he'd go home at the first opportunity). Otherwise they didn't really miss out on anything.
2012: 1. Whitfield, 2. O'Rourke, 3. Plowman, 12. Jaksch, 14. Corr, 27. Stewart,
Aside from their first and last two picks shit draft. Missed out on the 5,6,7 trio of Stringer, Macrae and Wines but Corr and Stewart were good picks for their parts of the draft.
2013: 1. Boyd, 2. Kelly, 14. McCarthy, 29. Lobb
First two picks are excellent but Bontempelli is a miss and Billings is pretty interchangeable with Kelly really. Nailed the McCarthy pick despite the homesickness, and Lobb a great get looking one of the best in his zone now.

Dominated drafts and generally picked the best player available, which is the idea when you have the picks they had. I think more credit for the list build goes to their trading team though, their ability to keep the players that are performing while trading away the "potential" guns for almost original value allowed them to strong arm other clubs out of the draft and just keep churning through high end talent.

In each of their first three drafts GWS only picked one player after pick 14, compared to GC who in the 2nd and 3rd draft had just 3 picks after the mini drafts with pick 13 being the highest.

I think part of the reason for GC's struggle has been that despite getting talent in, they have failed to develop it for whatever reasons. Also and this is a major difference, GC have given their players every chance to succeed with them before trading them, while GWS were happy to trade them out before any prolonged exposed form lessened their value. It is reasonable to assume that if GWS had the likes of Bennell, Gorringe and Dixon on their list they may have been gone years ago instead of last year for a much better return, while GC may have retained Tyson, Jaksch and Boyd until their value had've dropped. Sure many of those players initiated their move from GWS but GWS did not fight hard to keep them and instead set about getting great deals. Unfortunately they have also nailed the Treloar trade and look likely to get something awesome for McCarthy.

In summary GC stuffed up their recruiting because they were too heavily dependant on nailing the picks and developing the 2010 class, as every draft after that they faced the same issues as the rest of the comp, in that they couldn't get access to the more than one quality pick. This meant they had to have nailed their free agent and trade pickups, but unfortunately for them they targeted ready to go players that had little scope for improvement or are either retired or approaching it now in Bock, Brennan, Ablett, Harbrow etc.

GWS were given the world and have rather effortlessly turned one dominant draft into an indefinite amount by starving the rest of the comp of elite talent for two years, then drip feeding it back to them at exorbitant prices and continuing the cycle. They nailed their free agent pickups, getting players that would grow with the club like Ward, Davis and Scully who is finally playing as hoped. It says a lot about how good a club can have it when they can lose 5 top 10 picks from 3 of their 5 drafts and not appear to have even felt the hit, while we have had to nail the measly 4 top 20 picks we have had in that time to be talked about as talented enough to contend with them.

Yep. Far from being the savior of the competition GWS will drag the AFL down if we let them.

[F'scary]

Re: Gold Coast Suns - Scott Clayton

Yep. Far from being the savior of the competition GWS will drag the AFL down if we let them.

The AFL just doesn't understand this stuff. It is like the effect termites have.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Gold Coast Suns - Scott Clayton

Just a quick analysis of the first 4/3 drafts for each club. Very different recruiting models, GC look to have had just as many talented pickups but unlike GWS they haven't come on as hoped. Also GC haven't cashed in on their trade value nearly as much as GWS have managed to. GWS though had a huge headstart, the mini draft effectively gave them pick 2 and 4 from GC alone, and allowed them to dominate drafts. I think GWS have had the worse misses, O'Rourke and Plowman at picks 2 and 3 is criminal, especially when they were soon followed by Stringer, Macrae and Wines who are all guns.

Here's a brief analysis, keep in mind when I was comparing to players the club missed i tried to be lenient after the top few picks as draft boards change drastically. ie. Parker was pick 40 in 2010, but I don't count him as a miss because it is unlikely GC were making the call between him and Taylor. In other words i am crediting late picks to the club that found thems good recruiting instead of blaming clubs for missing them.

Gold Coast:
2010 (initial): 1 Swallow, 2. Bennell, 3. Day, 7. Caddy, 9. Prestia, 10. Gorringe, 11. Lynch, 13. Tape, 39. Taylor, 49. Gilbee.
Most are sufficiently talented players now with only the two late picks not on a list, and a couple at different clubs now, although attitude and development issues have held back a few. Didn't miss out on much, just Heppell (who went at 8).
2011: 24. Schade + O'Meara (mini draft)
Nothing draft, just one mediocre player. O'Meara is a quality addition though that cost pick 4. Players around the mid 20's mark were Ross, Yeo and Brad Hill, although Schade seems ok.
2012: 13. "Lonergan, 58. Cameron + Martin (mini draft)
Martin cost pick 2, Lonergan could have been Corr but otherwise didn't really miss much.
2013: 5. Koladjashnij, 20. Leslie, 27 Lemmens
Did pretty well, KK the best available in his zone, not sure about Leslie and he was followed by M Crouch, McStay and Z Merrett who all look good, so maybe a miss. Lemmens could have been Taylor but Lemmens looks alright so not a big loss.

Actually a pretty good group of picks, almost always picking the best talent available at the picks they had. Unlike GWS lacked the sheer quantity of picks to dominate drafts aside from their first year, but tbf they were never in a position to get those picks once GWS came in with their headstart. Hard to dominate drafts when GWS already have picks 1,2,3 and are receiving more high picks for their high picks that have yet to come on.

GWS:
2011 (Initial): 1. Patton, 2. Coniglio, 3 Tyson, 4. Hoskin Elliot, 5. Buntine, 7. Haynes, 9. Tomlinson, 10. Sumner, 11. Greene, 13. Adams, 14. Smith, 56. Downie
Almost all are quality now either at GWS or elsewhere . Pretty awesome draft haul but it should be with 8 top 10 picks. Big miss on Wingard at 6 (although I remember rumours of him telling them he'd go home at the first opportunity). Otherwise they didn't really miss out on anything.
2012: 1. Whitfield, 2. O'Rourke, 3. Plowman, 12. Jaksch, 14. Corr, 27. Stewart,
Aside from their first and last two picks shit draft. Missed out on the 5,6,7 trio of Stringer, Macrae and Wines but Corr and Stewart were good picks for their parts of the draft.
2013: 1. Boyd, 2. Kelly, 14. McCarthy, 29. Lobb
First two picks are excellent but Bontempelli is a miss and Billings is pretty interchangeable with Kelly really. Nailed the McCarthy pick despite the homesickness, and Lobb a great get looking one of the best in his zone now.

Dominated drafts and generally picked the best player available, which is the idea when you have the picks they had. I think more credit for the list build goes to their trading team though, their ability to keep the players that are performing while trading away the "potential" guns for almost original value allowed them to strong arm other clubs out of the draft and just keep churning through high end talent.

In each of their first three drafts GWS only picked one player after pick 14, compared to GC who in the 2nd and 3rd draft had just 3 picks after the mini drafts with pick 13 being the highest.

I think part of the reason for GC's struggle has been that despite getting talent in, they have failed to develop it for whatever reasons. Also and this is a major difference, GC have given their players every chance to succeed with them before trading them, while GWS were happy to trade them out before any prolonged exposed form lessened their value. It is reasonable to assume that if GWS had the likes of Bennell, Gorringe and Dixon on their list they may have been gone years ago instead of last year for a much better return, while GC may have retained Tyson, Jaksch and Boyd until their value had've dropped. Sure many of those players initiated their move from GWS but GWS did not fight hard to keep them and instead set about getting great deals. Unfortunately they have also nailed the Treloar trade and look likely to get something awesome for McCarthy.

In summary GC stuffed up their recruiting because they were too heavily dependant on nailing the picks and developing the 2010 class, as every draft after that they faced the same issues as the rest of the comp, in that they couldn't get access to the more than one quality pick. This meant they had to have nailed their free agent and trade pickups, but unfortunately for them they targeted ready to go players that had little scope for improvement or are either retired or approaching it now in Bock, Brennan, Ablett, Harbrow etc.

GWS were given the world and have rather effortlessly turned one dominant draft into an indefinite amount by starving the rest of the comp of elite talent for two years, then drip feeding it back to them at exorbitant prices and continuing the cycle. They nailed their free agent pickups, getting players that would grow with the club like Ward, Davis and Scully who is finally playing as hoped. It says a lot about how good a club can have it when they can lose 5 top 10 picks from 3 of their 5 drafts and not appear to have even felt the hit, while we have had to nail the measly 4 top 20 picks we have had in that time to be talked about as talented enough to contend with them.

Clicking thanks isn't enough, really great post. Please also thank your employer for freeing you up to do a heck of a lot of research.

[ledge]

Re: Gold Coast Suns - Scott Clayton

GWS are smart get the best talent in then trade for positions you need, a little like the Hawks did with Lake and Geelong have done with Dangerfield.
If you have a heap of the same player you can trade for what you need, I believe we have done a bit the same with Honeychurch Hrovat, we will trade some to get a CHF or CHB

[Ozza]

Re: Gold Coast Suns - Scott Clayton

Recruited Grant TWICE!