The week off before finals

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  • bulldogsthru&thru
    Bulldog Team of the Century
    • May 2011
    • 7610

    The week off before finals

    I have to take issue with all the complaining going on around this topic.

    This is not about the week off itself. But specifically in regards to it's perceived disadvantage to the top 4 in finals.

    The arguments being thrown around:
    -The season is a war of attrition, therefore the healthiest teams should get the benefit of no bye (this was from Paul Roos and can be immediately dismissed. It's plain rubbish)
    -The top 4 teams lose their advantage. Now by this they actually mean the teams from the top 4 who win in week 1 lose their advantage in prelim week.

    Now noone seems to be arguing against the fact that the week off provides a better spectacle (admittedly we only have last year to go off and it was largely due to the bulldogs' stunning effort). But the main claim is that the top 4 should hold a significant advantage over the bottom 4. Essentially saying teams 5-8 should have next to no chance of winning the flag. This is utter rubbish. The top 4 have always and still have SIGNIFICANT advantages.
    Firstly, they get a double chance! TWO GOES AT IT! No other major sport in the world allows teams in knockout stages to lose and then have another shot at it. Now of course the second chance makes sense because we have a finals system where the top half of teams play against each other. But it's still a fair advantage
    Secondly, the top 2 get home ground advantage throughout the entire finals series. A pretty big advantage if you ask me. The two losing teams from week 1 also get home ground advantage in week 2 (but it's not about the losing teams from week 1 anyway)
    Thirdly, there was always debate around whether the teams that had the week off before the prelims did indeed have an advantage. Were they rusty or well rested?
    Fourth, the season with a 22 game format and playing random 5 teams twice is already unfair. So crying about this is fairly petty IMO.

    I do agree that having a week off, then a week on and then another week off is not ideal. However it shouldn't make THAT much of a difference. If you're good enough you'll get through.

    Of course, we have a sample size of 1 to go off so i think a lot of people are being precious about all of this. I actually think the week off is great. It allows teams to get fit and healthy to give us fans the best spectacle. Having all 8 teams with a realistic chance of winning it all is far better than the boring top 4 only. I still believe the top 4 get enough advantages that outweigh any week off side effects. Team can plan for this an adjust loads accordingly. Unfortunately i feel it will be the scapegoat when Sydney wins the flag from fifth. This, despite the fact they are currently clearly the best team just as we were not a true 7th placed side last year.

    Thoughts?
  • Twodogs
    Administrator
    • Nov 2006
    • 27645

    #2
    Re: The week off before finals

    Originally posted by bulldogsthru&thru
    I have to take issue with all the complaining going on around this topic.

    This is not about the week off itself. But specifically in regards to it's perceived disadvantage to the top 4 in finals.

    The arguments being thrown around:
    -The season is a war of attrition, therefore the healthiest teams should get the benefit of no bye (this was from Paul Roos and can be immediately dismissed. It's plain rubbish)
    -The top 4 teams lose their advantage. Now by this they actually mean the teams from the top 4 who win in week 1 lose their advantage in prelim week.

    Now noone seems to be arguing against the fact that the week off provides a better spectacle (admittedly we only have last year to go off and it was largely due to the bulldogs' stunning effort). But the main claim is that the top 4 should hold a significant advantage over the bottom 4. Essentially saying teams 5-8 should have next to no chance of winning the flag. This is utter rubbish. The top 4 have always and still have SIGNIFICANT advantages.
    Firstly, they get a double chance! TWO GOES AT IT! No other major sport in the world allows teams in knockout stages to lose and then have another shot at it. Now of course the second chance makes sense because we have a finals system where the top half of teams play against each other. But it's still a fair advantage
    Secondly, the top 2 get home ground advantage throughout the entire finals series. A pretty big advantage if you ask me. The two losing teams from week 1 also get home ground advantage in week 2 (but it's not about the losing teams from week 1 anyway)
    Thirdly, there was always debate around whether the teams that had the week off before the prelims did indeed have an advantage. Were they rusty or well rested?
    Fourth, the season with a 22 game format and playing random 5 teams twice is already unfair. So crying about this is fairly petty IMO.

    I do agree that having a week off, then a week on and then another week off is not ideal. However it shouldn't make THAT much of a difference. If you're good enough you'll get through.

    Of course, we have a sample size of 1 to go off so i think a lot of people are being precious about all of this. I actually think the week off is great. It allows teams to get fit and healthy to give us fans the best spectacle. Having all 8 teams with a realistic chance of winning it all is far better than the boring top 4 only. I still believe the top 4 get enough advantages that outweigh any week off side effects. Team can plan for this an adjust loads accordingly. Unfortunately i feel it will be the scapegoat when Sydney wins the flag from fifth. This, despite the fact they are currently clearly the best team just as we were not a true 7th placed side last year.

    Thoughts?
    The simple way around having that problem is to not finish top 4. Problem solved, next!

    I do agree to an extent that the top 4 teams are slightly disadvantaged by the week's break but the competition benefited last year with an awesome (I thought it was awesome) finals series. Top 4 teams get a lot of other advantages (home finals for top 2*, double chance) so waiting out a week's break isn't going to be a huge ongoing disadvantage. Teams will come up with a way of counteracting the long break anyway with adjustment to training and more competitive sessions.


    * if you are looking for a disadvantage what about if you are Brisbane and finish 3rd and get a road trip to Perth because the Dockers finished second but you can be Richmond and finish eighth and draw Geekong who finished fifth at the MCG. Sure in that scenario Brisbane have a double chance but even so.
    They say Burt Lancaster has one, but I don't believe them.

    Comment

    • Bornadog
      WOOF Clubhouse Leader
      • Jan 2007
      • 65575

      #3
      Re: The week off before finals

      There has been a lot of whinging about this and if the top 4 are meant to be the ones going through, then don't have a top 8 system and just do a top 4. Problem solved.
      FFC: Established 1883

      Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

      Comment

      • The Pie Man
        Coaching Staff
        • May 2008
        • 3497

        #4
        Re: The week off before finals

        Sample size of this is far too small to make any real judgement, though I'll add a few points in support.

        * The week off didn't hurt GWS' performance against us in the 2016 prelim at all. It will go down as a classic

        * Didn't seem to hurt the top team a great deal when we had a top 5

        e.g 1985. Essendon finish 1st, have a week off, pants Hawthorn in the semi, another week off, pants Hawthorn in the GF. Up to the prelim, it's the same gap b/w games as the winner of the 2 QFs in the current setup

        Clarkson et al are overreacting, and the implication that we won last year due to the integrity of the finals series being compromised irks me aplenty
        Float Along - Fill Your Lungs

        Comment

        • Ozza
          Bulldog Team of the Century
          • Mar 2008
          • 6380

          #5
          Re: The week off before finals

          Originally posted by The Pie Man
          Sample size of this is far too small to make any real judgement, though I'll add a few points in support.

          * The week off didn't hurt GWS' performance against us in the 2016 prelim at all. It will go down as a classic

          * Didn't seem to hurt the top team a great deal when we had a top 5

          e.g 1985. Essendon finish 1st, have a week off, pants Hawthorn in the semi, another week off, pants Hawthorn in the GF. Up to the prelim, it's the same gap b/w games as the winner of the 2 QFs in the current setup

          Clarkson et al are overreacting, and the implication that we won last year due to the integrity of the finals series being compromised irks me aplenty
          Agree with this. Sample size is ridiculously small to be carrying on about it. Last year - the top team (Sydney) beat Geelong who they have smashed at Kardinia park in the same way only a handful of weeks prior. And a young GWS side played very well and went down by a goal in a classic, to the eventual premier.

          The bye gives the footy public a better opportunity to have all of the best players available for finals. Shouldn't we be happy that due to the bye, two of the league's best players - Joel Selwood and Rory Sloane - will have the opportunity to get up to play? Aren't the finals better for having those two playing?

          Comment

          • bulldogsthru&thru
            Bulldog Team of the Century
            • May 2011
            • 7610

            #6
            Re: The week off before finals

            Originally posted by Ozza
            Agree with this. Sample size is ridiculously small to be carrying on about it. Last year - the top team (Sydney) beat Geelong who they have smashed at Kardinia park in the same way only a handful of weeks prior. And a young GWS side played very well and went down by a goal in a classic, to the eventual premier.

            The bye gives the footy public a better opportunity to have all of the best players available for finals. Shouldn't we be happy that due to the bye, two of the league's best players - Joel Selwood and Rory Sloane - will have the opportunity to get up to play? Aren't the finals better for having those two playing?
            On this point, Paul Roos is arguing its a war of attrition so advantage GWS. Yes a war of attrition with Sloane and his appendicitis. Give me a break. The whole competition is way better off having Sloane and Selwood available to play.

            Comment

            • Topdog
              Bulldog Team of the Century
              • Jan 2007
              • 7457

              #7
              Re: The week off before finals

              The week off before the finals is a great idea. Its the week off after winning week 1 that is problematic because now you have 2 weeks off in a 3 week period. That can never be a good thing and would never have sounded like a good idea to anyone that thought through the consequences of their decisions.

              So what should be scrapped? The week off before finals that ensures all 8 teams are fresh? The week off after week 1? Or do you change the entire top 8 system and get rid of the 2nd chance? so

              a. 1v8
              b. 2v7
              c. 3v6
              d. 4v8

              Week 2 =
              AvC
              BvD

              Winner plays off in GF but then you lose 1 week of money spinning for the AFL.

              YET AGAIN THE AFL MAKES A "RULE" CHANGE WITHOUT THINKING OF THE CONSEQUENCES!

              Comment

              • bulldogsthru&thru
                Bulldog Team of the Century
                • May 2011
                • 7610

                #8
                Re: The week off before finals

                Agree with everything posted above. Can also draw from the NFL. The top 2 teams get the first week off, play 2 games and then have another week off before the Super Bowl. It's pretty much the same thing. I think it's a bit of sour grapes, petty argumentation with a splash of boredom and irrelevancy.

                Comment

                • Twodogs
                  Administrator
                  • Nov 2006
                  • 27645

                  #9
                  Re: The week off before finals

                  Originally posted by bulldogsthru&thru
                  On this point, Paul Roos is arguing its a war of attrition so advantage GWS. Yes a war of attrition with Sloane and his appendicitis. Give me a break. The whole competition is way better off having Sloane and Selwood available to play.

                  Just on that, improvement to surgery aside that's a mighty effort to have them out and be up and playing AFL a couple of weeks later. When I had mine out I was on the couch for 3 weeks before I managed to walk up to Francis st (about 500 metres) and back from my parents' house. Took me 48 hours to recover properly. It was 30 years ago I guess.


                  Originally posted by bulldogsthru&thru
                  Agree with everything posted above. Can also draw from the NFL. The top 2 teams get the first week off, play 2 games and then have another week off before the Super Bowl. It's pretty much the same thing. I think it's a bit of sour grapes, petty argumentation with a splash of boredom and irrelevancy.
                  And newspapers and website space to fill up.


                  Originally posted by The Pie Man
                  Sample size of this is far too small to make any real judgement, though I'll add a few points in support.

                  * The week off didn't hurt GWS' performance against us in the 2016 prelim at all. It will go down as a classic

                  * Didn't seem to hurt the top team a great deal when we had a top 5

                  e.g 1985. Essendon finish 1st, have a week off, pants Hawthorn in the semi, another week off, pants Hawthorn in the GF. Up to the prelim, it's the same gap b/w games as the winner of the 2 QFs in the current setup

                  Clarkson et al are overreacting, and the implication that we won last year due to the integrity of the finals series being compromised irks me aplenty
                  Meh! In years to come that premiership will be looked back on with astonishment. "How did they do that?" Little kids that are yet to be born will look at us in awe and say "wow, you were there?" We've got war stories to tell around the campfire! "And then JJ kicked it 70, no 80 metres to the Bont who out sprinted the entire 18 GWS players on the ground and then baulked around the 4 interchange players on the bench just for good measure before he kicked the goal."
                  They say Burt Lancaster has one, but I don't believe them.

                  Comment

                  • Bornadog
                    WOOF Clubhouse Leader
                    • Jan 2007
                    • 65575

                    #10
                    Re: The week off before finals

                    Originally posted by bulldogsthru&thru
                    On this point, Paul Roos is arguing its a war of attrition so advantage GWS. Yes a war of attrition with Sloane and his appendicitis. Give me a break. The whole competition is way better off having Sloane and Selwood available to play.
                    To be fair, Bevo thinks the same way, and so do many coaches.
                    FFC: Established 1883

                    Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

                    Comment

                    • bulldogsthru&thru
                      Bulldog Team of the Century
                      • May 2011
                      • 7610

                      #11
                      Re: The week off before finals

                      Originally posted by bornadog
                      To be fair, Bevo thinks the same way, and so do many coaches.
                      Ultimately it always comes down to a war of attrition but if some players can get back after a week off i'm all for it.

                      Comment

                      • The Pie Man
                        Coaching Staff
                        • May 2008
                        • 3497

                        #12
                        Re: The week off before finals

                        Originally posted by Topdog
                        The week off before the finals is a great idea. Its the week off after winning week 1 that is problematic because now you have 2 weeks off in a 3 week period. That can never be a good thing and would never have sounded like a good idea to anyone that thought through the consequences of their decisions.

                        So what should be scrapped? The week off before finals that ensures all 8 teams are fresh? The week off after week 1? Or do you change the entire top 8 system and get rid of the 2nd chance? so

                        a. 1v8
                        b. 2v7
                        c. 3v6
                        d. 4v8

                        Week 2 =
                        AvC
                        BvD

                        Winner plays off in GF but then you lose 1 week of money spinning for the AFL.

                        YET AGAIN THE AFL MAKES A "RULE" CHANGE WITHOUT THINKING OF THE CONSEQUENCES!
                        1 game in 3 weeks didn't seem to hurt the top team in the 80's when we had a top 5.

                        The whining because Geelong just did not show up vs Sydney in last year's prelim is somewhere between boring and annoying...yet of course we want to knee jerk against it like we did with the slide rule.

                        Hope the AFL let's this play out for a few more years yet.
                        Float Along - Fill Your Lungs

                        Comment

                        • westdog54
                          Bulldog Team of the Century
                          • Jan 2007
                          • 6683

                          #13
                          Re: The week off before finals

                          Originally posted by The Pie Man
                          Sample size of this is far too small to make any real judgement, though I'll add a few points in support.

                          * The week off didn't hurt GWS' performance against us in the 2016 prelim at all. It will go down as a classic

                          * Didn't seem to hurt the top team a great deal when we had a top 5

                          e.g 1985. Essendon finish 1st, have a week off, pants Hawthorn in the semi, another week off, pants Hawthorn in the GF. Up to the prelim, it's the same gap b/w games as the winner of the 2 QFs in the current setup

                          Clarkson et al are overreacting, and the implication that we won last year due to the integrity of the finals series being compromised irks me aplenty
                          GWS played out of their skins, as did we.

                          Geelong were lucky to survive their QF and were blown out of the water by a far superior team in their prelim.

                          The week off was not the cause of their issues.

                          Comment

                          • bulldogsthru&thru
                            Bulldog Team of the Century
                            • May 2011
                            • 7610

                            #14
                            Re: The week off before finals

                            Originally posted by westdog54
                            GWS played out of their skins, as did we.

                            Geelong were lucky to survive their QF and were blown out of the water by a far superior team in their prelim.

                            The week off was not the cause of their issues.
                            Fine. It was the umpiring then

                            Comment

                            • Topdog
                              Bulldog Team of the Century
                              • Jan 2007
                              • 7457

                              #15
                              Re: The week off before finals

                              Originally posted by The Pie Man
                              1 game in 3 weeks didn't seem to hurt the top team in the 80's when we had a top 5.

                              The whining because Geelong just did not show up vs Sydney in last year's prelim is somewhere between boring and annoying...yet of course we want to knee jerk against it like we did with the slide rule.

                              Hope the AFL let's this play out for a few more years yet.
                              It didnt seem to hurt the amateur teams playing against other amateur opposition, no. Professional teams it doesn't sound like a good idea and the complaining about it was around before both teams lost last year.

                              Anyway we all know the AFL love to jerk the knee so be prepared for another change

                              Comment

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