No-one should let Martin get to the Blues.

[mjp]

Re: No-one should let Martin get to the Blues.

How do you remedy what the player wants?

I’m not a fan of player dictating terms at all, but a bloke on the list that doesn’t want to be there - particularly in a juicy contract - is doing more harm than good.

I don't understand what Martin 'wants' has to do with this. He is NOT a Free Agent. The players have mechanisms through which they can achieve autonomy with regards the club that they play at...it's called FREE AGENCY. They fought long and hard for that through the CBA.

Until they become Free Agents, the players 'belong' to the club who contracted them. If he wants to go to Carlton, then he (and by extension, his manager) should have been very clear in telling Carlton what GC required as trade collateral. It is my understand that they were. Carlton have ignored that and effectively refused to negotiate with GC on a fair exchange - instead using their low standing on the ladder and the 'hammer' that is "Gold Coast wont redraft you - don't worry about it kid" to continue to promise to get the deal over the line.

This is BS behaviour. If there was a "Club's Association" then they would be up in arms...as it turns out, there is (it's called the AFL Commission) but I'm not sure they're all that interested these days...

[bulldogtragic]

Re: No-one should let Martin get to the Blues.

An option Melbourne have more or less ruled out.



Agree to an extent. I can't help but feel, though, that Martin has been led astray by his manager to an extent.

I wonder if, assuming GC hold the line here and call Carlton's bluff, whether there will begin to be a tendency away from players nominating clubs for trade destinations.

Interesting thought. They should do something to foster competition in trading, I've not given it a ton of thought. But maybe something like a player who chooses to 'nominate' then needs to nominate at least two clubs and the club that owns the player contract is free to work a deal with both for the best outcome. Then the list managers need to double their efforts too.

If took Jack Martin and the club he nominated and the runner up, us. Craig Cameron has meetings with Sam Power and SOS during the trade period. Martin gets traded to Victoria on good money and a long term deal. GCS get something decent in return. The club that aggressively and honestly sought to deal with GCS gets Jack Martin.

The flip side is, are you going to leave your future in SOS' hands into the future? As opposed to Josh Bruce who said he always completely trusted Sam Power to trade him in even going to the last day. Power landing two bigger deals at the end. Clubs who have the ability to close deals become a safer bet to nominate for players. At a minimum this episode should focus the players minds about which clubs they can trust to honour their public nomination and which they can't.

Changing pick trading rules to include the rookie draft and PSD could hopefully circumvent it in future. Then giving clubs the power to deal with two clubs (not a huge compromise but on first thought maybe there's something to it?) might assist in increasing player values but also in incentivising more transparent trading behaviour (like a auction between two buyers).

Nominating hasn't been a huge issue by and large between two clubs and a players manager, until Carlton ruined it with a bigger name trade. But it's bound to have an effect. If nothing happens, it highlights our club and Sam Power can be trusted with your nomination to come play in finals and win flags.

[westdog54]

Re: No-one should let Martin get to the Blues.

Interesting thought. They should do something to foster competition in trading, I've not given it a ton of thought. But maybe something like a player who chooses to 'nominate' then needs to nominate at least two clubs and the club that owns the player contract is free to work a deal with both for the best outcome. Then the list managers need to double their efforts too.

If took Jack Martin and the club he nominated and the runner up, us. Craig Cameron has meetings with Sam Power and SOS during the trade period. Martin gets traded to Victoria on good money and a long term deal. GCS get something decent in return. The club that aggressively and honestly sought to deal with GCS gets Jack Martin.

The flip side is, are you going to leave your future in SOS' hands into the future? As opposed to Josh Bruce who said he always completely trusted Sam Power to trade him in even going to the last day. Power landing two bigger deals at the end. Clubs who have the ability to close deals become a safer bet to nominate for players. At a minimum this episode should focus the players minds about which clubs they can trust to honour their public nomination and which they can't.

Changing pick trading rules to include the rookie draft and PSD could hopefully circumvent it in future. Then giving clubs the power to deal with two clubs (not a huge compromise but on first thought maybe there's something to it?) might assist in increasing player values but also in incentivising more transparent trading behaviour (like a auction between two buyers).

Nominating hasn't been a huge issue by and large between two clubs and a players manager, until Carlton ruined it with a bigger name trade. But it's bound to have an effect. If nothing happens, it highlights our club and Sam Power can be trusted with your nomination to come play in finals and win flags.

The problem is that the whole 'nominating' thing is entirely informal and has no standing from a contractual basis whatsoever.

A player may have come to hypothetical contract terms with a rival club, however, as MJP has quite rightly pointed out, the player 'belongs' to their current club until either they become a free agent, they are delisted by the club, their contract expires or a trade is agreed upon.

The onus here now is on the clubs to start pushing back against this 'nomination' business.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: No-one should let Martin get to the Blues.

The problem is that the whole 'nominating' thing is entirely informal and has no standing from a contractual basis whatsoever.

A player may have come to hypothetical contract terms with a rival club, however, as MJP has quite rightly pointed out, the player 'belongs' to their current club until either they become a free agent, they are delisted by the club, their contract expires or a trade is agreed upon.

The onus here now is on the clubs to start pushing back against this 'nomination' business.

I'm not entirely sure nominating is in and of itself the issue, it's the single club nature of it. Clubs can push back on that by regulating the process prior to free agency. Nominating multiple clubs could address that by allowing the club that has the player to deal with multiple potential trade partners.

I have no problem extending the rookie contract out to three years. Free agency cuts in after 7 years. If you want a trade between years 4-6 then you nominate multiple clubs (insert number of years) for you to seek a trade to. In this case, when Carlton fell over we or North could've picked Martin up.

On the flip side, clubs could be financially penalised for over contracting players and then trading them out the door under contract.

Or all players are immediate free agents post rookie contract, but clubs can trade players out at their discretion. Then players and clubs can do whatever they want.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: No-one should let Martin get to the Blues.

Mick Gleeson of The Age today has more explicitly thrashed out the creative option. Being the trading of picks to ensure a delisted free agency status and that the rules don’t prohibit it.

He says Carlton won’t do it though preferring to risk the PSD and GCS threat. Should we at least try? Maybe he stays or gets to Carlton. Maybe he doesn’t and stays at GCS for another year. But he could certainly get to his second choice destination (us) on better money with certainty for next year.

GCS swap 13 for 20. Then GCS trade Picks 13 & 15 for GWS Pick 6.
Dogs get Pick 20 & Martin as a DFA.
Martin gets the previous offer of 5 x $700,000.

Everyone wins if we get Martin and his manager to take our certainty over the risky alternatives. Just be there to maybe catch a bargain as an off ramp for Martin. It’s fair game to ask GCS & Martin again.

[AshMac]

Re: No-one should let Martin get to the Blues.

I don't understand what Martin 'wants' has to do with this. He is NOT a Free Agent. The players have mechanisms through which they can achieve autonomy with regards the club that they play at...it's called FREE AGENCY. They fought long and hard for that through the CBA.

Until they become Free Agents, the players 'belong' to the club who contracted them. If he wants to go to Carlton, then he (and by extension, his manager) should have been very clear in telling Carlton what GC required as trade collateral. It is my understand that they were. Carlton have ignored that and effectively refused to negotiate with GC on a fair exchange - instead using their low standing on the ladder and the 'hammer' that is "Gold Coast wont redraft you - don't worry about it kid" to continue to promise to get the deal over the line.

This is BS behaviour. If there was a "Club's Association" then they would be up in arms...as it turns out, there is (it's called the AFL Commission) but I'm not sure they're all that interested these days...

Couldn’t agree more. We’ve arrived at a situation where the players welfare and preference is the main consideration - even if it is at the departing clubs detriment.

It is BS and it is putting a division and inequality between the terms of good players and the mediocre. It’s also negating the value of contracts for clubs - as the player has guaranteed earnings but the club doesn’t have a guaranteed player. At least that’s the situation today.

At the same time, it can’t be denied that no club wants a player on their list that doesn’t want to be there. The possibility of a best 22 sitting on the sidelines or poisoning club culture has to be a serious consideration.

Not sure of the answer - other than some dictatorial policy on who can nominate and when, or a blanket rule that the club has the final say - which will never get through.

[divvydan]

Re: No-one should let Martin get to the Blues.

Mick Gleeson of The Age today has more explicitly thrashed out the creative option. Being the trading of picks to ensure a delisted free agency status and that the rules don’t prohibit it.

He says Carlton won’t do it though preferring to risk the PSD and GCS threat. Should we at least try? Maybe he stays or gets to Carlton. Maybe he doesn’t and stays at GCS for another year. But he could certainly get to his second choice destination (us) on better money with certainty for next year.

GCS swap 13 for 20. Then GCS trade Picks 13 & 15 for GWS Pick 6.
Dogs get Pick 20 & Martin as a DFA.
Martin gets the previous offer of 5 x $700,000.

Everyone wins if we get Martin and his manager to take our certainty over the risky alternatives. Just be there to maybe catch a bargain as an off ramp for Martin. It’s fair game to ask GCS & Martin again.

If Martin becomes a DFA, why would he then come to us instead of going where he wants to go which he can now do? Sure we can say "Hey, we did this deal to allow you to leave the GC and know where you're going to go" but there's no reason, other than we think it's what he should do, for him to then come to us instead of Carlton.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: No-one should let Martin get to the Blues.

If Martin becomes a DFA, why would he then come to us instead of going where he wants to go which he can now do? Sure we can say "Hey, we did this deal to allow you to leave the GC and know where you're going to go" but there's no reason, other than we think it's what he should do, for him to then come to us instead of Carlton.

Sign off the contracts/status simultaneously. That's the very earliest we would sign over a pick swap for the that reason.

[hujsh]

Re: No-one should let Martin get to the Blues.

If Martin becomes a DFA, why would he then come to us instead of going where he wants to go which he can now do? Sure we can say "Hey, we did this deal to allow you to leave the GC and know where you're going to go" but there's no reason, other than we think it's what he should do, for him to then come to us instead of Carlton.

Well the idea would be to get him to agree to it first

[Dancin' Douggy]

Re: No-one should let Martin get to the Blues.

I like this scenario.........

Mick Gleeson of The Age today has more explicitly thrashed out the creative option. Being the trading of picks to ensure a delisted free agency status and that the rules don’t prohibit it.

He says Carlton won’t do it though preferring to risk the PSD and GCS threat. Should we at least try? Maybe he stays or gets to Carlton. Maybe he doesn’t and stays at GCS for another year. But he could certainly get to his second choice destination (us) on better money with certainty for next year.

GCS swap 13 for 20. Then GCS trade Picks 13 & 15 for GWS Pick 6.
Dogs get Pick 20 & Martin as a DFA.
Martin gets the previous offer of 5 x $700,000.

Everyone wins if we get Martin and his manager to take our certainty over the risky alternatives. Just be there to maybe catch a bargain as an off ramp for Martin. It’s fair game to ask GCS & Martin again.

[Bornadog]

Re: No-one should let Martin get to the Blues.

Jack Martin's window of opportunity

[AshMac]

Re: No-one should let Martin get to the Blues.

Mick Gleeson of The Age today has more explicitly thrashed out the creative option. Being the trading of picks to ensure a delisted free agency status and that the rules don’t prohibit it.

He says Carlton won’t do it though preferring to risk the PSD and GCS threat. Should we at least try? Maybe he stays or gets to Carlton. Maybe he doesn’t and stays at GCS for another year. But he could certainly get to his second choice destination (us) on better money with certainty for next year.

GCS swap 13 for 20. Then GCS trade Picks 13 & 15 for GWS Pick 6.
Dogs get Pick 20 & Martin as a DFA.
Martin gets the previous offer of 5 x $700,000.

Everyone wins if we get Martin and his manager to take our certainty over the risky alternatives. Just be there to maybe catch a bargain as an off ramp for Martin. It’s fair game to ask GCS & Martin again.

Love this scenario, know you’ve been touting something similar BT for a week now. Warming to the idea of him tbh, plus we could snaffle the small forward need and move onto another type of player at best available.

[mjp]

Re: No-one should let Martin get to the Blues.

Love this scenario, know you’ve been touting something similar BT for a week now. Warming to the idea of him tbh, plus we could snaffle the small forward need and move onto another type of player at best available.

I love Jack and he is as talented a player as there is. But he doesn't want us. It feels a bit like: "Tonight, marrying the beautiful, blushing bride is 'this guy'" as the best man takes one step to his left after the groom doesn't show up.

He should be at the Gold Coast. Or somewhere else that isn't Carlton and isn't us. We had our shot, we missed...we move along.

[Twodogs]

Re: No-one should let Martin get to the Blues.

I love Jack and he is as talented a player as there is. But he doesn't want us. It feels a bit like: "Tonight, marrying the beautiful, blushing bride is 'this guy'" as the best man takes one step to his left after the groom doesn't show up.

He should be at the Gold Coast. Or somewhere else that isn't Carlton and isn't us. We had our shot, we missed...we move along.

No stalking? That's not very fair.


I love a good stalk.

[divvydan]

Re: No-one should let Martin get to the Blues.

St Kilda have rolled over to help Martin get to the Blues. Despite offering Jack Newnes a 2 year deal during the season, they've decided to delist him and allow him to move to Carlton as a delisted free agent after no deal was done during the trade period for him. This move allows Carlton to keep their PSD spot open for Martin and still get Newnes free.