Matthew Richardson's 2004 afl re-draft

[Bornadog]

Re: Matthew Richardson's 2004 afl re-draft

Now that is a controversial hot take. You'd be in the tiny minority not picking Buddy at 1...not that you don't make a good point, but Buddy is one of the ALLLLLLL time greats.

944 Career Goals - one of the best forwards to ever play the game, pick one for sure

[Happy Days]

Re: Matthew Richardson's 2004 afl re-draft

Buddy is the best player ever. Ridiculous to not think he goes first here G.

I’d have Griffen 3rd after Roughy and ahead of Cloke and Betts.

Lewis is nice and all but if he doesn’t play for Hawthorn is it really an argument that they don’t win those flags? I’d take Moz over him.

[hujsh]

Re: Matthew Richardson's 2004 afl re-draft

Knowing everything about the two if I were building a team to win a premiership I'd want Roughead more than Buddy.

If I were just picking the better forward then it's Buddy but I think Roughead contributes more to a team (including I suspect leadership/culture stuff)

[GVGjr]

Re: Matthew Richardson's 2004 afl re-draft

Now that is a controversial hot take. You'd be in the tiny minority not picking Buddy at 1...not that you don't make a good point, but Buddy is one of the ALLLLLLL time greats.

I'm not in anyway disputing that but here is a summary of Clarkson's presentation. I mention Clarksons thoughts on Roughead

https://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?931-An-hour-with-Alistair-Clarkson

[Twodogs]

Re: Matthew Richardson's 2004 afl re-draft

Deledio was better forward, but Griffen had a bigger impact in the middle and in finals. I think some Richmond bias has gotten the former over the line but they're hard to split.

Yep. Richo has rated one of his mates far too highly.

I reckon too much weight is given to premierships in these sorts of lists generally speaking. Some ordinary players win more than one of them.

Can't agree. Ordinary players (like Scot Howell the worst premiership player I have seem) might fluke playing in one flag but not multiple flags. For one thing you aren't going to win multiple flags with an ordinary player. The lesson I learned from 2016 is that it doesn't matter how many good players you have, if your bottom four players are better than the other mobs bottom 4 then you will win.

From 2006 to 2010, Griffen was in the top 1-3 players on the ground for us in 8 of the 11 finals we played. He is marked down because of the way he left the Dogs as captain but for mine he was vastly more impactful than Deledio, who was a glorified seagull picking up cheapies off half back for much of his career. If career longevity was a key determining factor then Eagleton would be a hall of famer. Deledio was a nice player but vastly overrated by the footy community.

I'd have hated to play with Brett Delidio. It would be worse than playing with Brendan Goddard.

Buddy is the best player ever. Ridiculous to not think he goes first here G.

Ever? Of all time? I don't think he's the best player playing in the AFL moment ATM and when he was at Hawthorn he wasn't even the best player on their list. If I had to redraft knowing what I know now I'd have Roughy and Hodge (different draft I know) before Buddy.

[Happy Days]

Re: Matthew Richardson's 2004 afl re-draft

Ever? Of all time? I don't think he's the best player playing in the AFL moment ATM and when he was at Hawthorn he wasn't even the best player on their list. If I had to redraft knowing what I know now I'd have Roughy and Hodge (different draft I know) before Buddy.

Ever of all time yes. People still talk about Ablett Lockett and Dunstall kicking 1000 goals against plumbers and chippies, Buddy's gonna do it against guys who actually train more than twice a week.

[Twodogs]

Re: Matthew Richardson's 2004 afl re-draft

Ever of all time yes. People still talk about Ablett Lockett and Dunstall kicking 1000 goals against plumbers and chippies, Buddy's gonna do it against guys who actually train more than twice a week.

Royce Hart was twice the player Buddy is. Don't get me wrong Buddy is a good player, probably a great player but I can name five players off the top of my head that I have seen play that are better than Buddy.

In no particular order (but with Hart clearly #1)


1/ Royce Hart

2/ Wayne Carey

3/ Darryl Baldock

4/ Tony Lockett

5/ Bernie Quinlan.

All those guys could mark overhead while a few of them also excelled at doing the rest of the things Buddy excels at. Quinlan for instance could run, mark and kick the footy 70 metres off the wrong foot. He kicked century totals more than Buddy and won a Brownlow. I didn't put Templeton in because I didn't want to be accused of bias but even he won two Colemans and a Brownlow in about 150 games less than Buddy.


Still think Buddy was the best ever?

[Happy Days]

Re: Matthew Richardson's 2004 afl re-draft

Royce Hart was twice the player Buddy is. Don't get me wrong Buddy is a good player, probably a great player but I can name five players off the top of my head that I have seen play that are better than Buddy.

In no particular order (but with Hart clearly #1)


1/ Royce Hart

2/ Wayne Carey

3/ Darryl Baldock

4/ Tony Lockett

5/ Bernie Quinlan.

All those guys could mark overhead while a few of them also excelled at doing the rest of the things Buddy excels at. Quinlan for instance could run, mark and kick the footy 70 metres off the wrong foot. He kicked century totals more than Buddy and won a Brownlow. I didn't put Templeton in because I didn't want to be accused of bias but even he won two Colemans and a Brownlow in about 150 games less than Buddy.


Still think Buddy was the best ever?

I'm happy with what I've said. Sure, Buddy can't mark overhead but I never saw Tony Lockett run 100m down the wing in 15 seconds and finish from the boundary 30m out, let alone do it twice in the same game (also never saw him win a flag). He can also run and kick on his left 70m, and on the very rare occasion someone can actually catch him to make him use his right he can do this;

Saying that players have kicked more century totals than Buddy is kind of misleading and that it's even a comparison points to how much of a force Buddy is.

Plus there's the whole "actually plays against professionals" thing.

[Bornadog]

Re: Matthew Richardson's 2004 afl re-draft

I'm happy with what I've said. Sure, Buddy can't mark overhead but I never saw Tony Lockett run 100m down the wing in 15 seconds and finish from the boundary 30m out, let alone do it twice in the same game (also never saw him win a flag). He can also run and kick on his left 70m, and on the very rare occasion someone can actually catch him to make him use his right he can do this;

Saying that players have kicked more century totals than Buddy is kind of misleading and that it's even a comparison points to how much of a force Buddy is.

Plus there's the whole "actually plays against professionals" thing.

Very difficult to compare players of different eras. I tend to agree with you that Buddy is one of the greatest to play the game, however, I can't say the greatest as there have been so many good players of the years.

This is one of the best performances ever:

[Twodogs]

Re: Matthew Richardson's 2004 afl re-draft

Royce Hart didn't need to run 70 metres in 15 seconds. He'd just blast them through from that distance instead. And it's a bit misleading with the whole "professional player" because Buddy trains just as much as them. The players that Hart played against were part time sure. But guess what? Royce Hart had a day job too. He only became a full time football person was when he came to coach us. Even then I was earning more than him in my first full time job a couple of years later.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VjevDLtVqtE

There is a very good reason Royce Hart was named in the VFL team of the century at CHF. I don't think that Buddy will make the next team if the century.


GVGjr and I have had this conversation in the past and he is in the Buddy camp with you. When he told me that he thought Buddy was better than Hart I had to go and have a bit of a sit down! I can understand your POV because you never saw Royce Hart play but Gary did...

[The Underdog]

Re: Matthew Richardson's 2004 afl re-draft

I'm happy with what I've said. Sure, Buddy can't mark overhead but I never saw Tony Lockett run 100m down the wing in 15 seconds and finish from the boundary 30m out, let alone do it twice in the same game (also never saw him win a flag). He can also run and kick on his left 70m, and on the very rare occasion someone can actually catch him to make him use his right he can do this;

Saying that players have kicked more century totals than Buddy is kind of misleading and that it's even a comparison points to how much of a force Buddy is.

Plus there's the whole "actually plays against professionals" thing.

Your assumption with the plays against professionals thing is that everybody else was somewhat of a hack who would have been immeasurably improved with a more professional training regimen, whereas Ablett and Lockett wouldn’t have. And I can assure you that Lockett and Ablett weren’t gaining ground on the comp with their training habits. Still, Ablett, Franklin and Carey are possibly the only 3 players of the last 40 years that I went to watch in a neutral game, just because they were playing.

And look, Franklin is a freakish talent who can take over a game like nobody else and I would have taken him first in that draft in hindsight.
I also believe that arguing about the best player in football history is like trying to wank with invisible arms on a raft in a tsunami

[jeemak]

Re: Matthew Richardson's 2004 afl re-draft

Can't agree. Ordinary players (like Scot Howell the worst premiership player I have seem) might fluke playing in one flag but not multiple flags. For one thing you aren't going to win multiple flags with an ordinary player. The lesson I learned from 2016 is that it doesn't matter how many good players you have, if your bottom four players are better than the other mobs bottom 4 then you will win.

I wasn't using ordinary as a slight, rather, more so in the way Jack Dyer used it when he described players as good ordinary players.

Shane Biggs was a good ordinary player. That he won a premiership didn't make him anything other than a good ordinary player who won a premiership. There's plenty of these types littered through AFL history, and there's plenty who have won more flags than Shane Biggs.

[Twodogs]

Re: Matthew Richardson's 2004 afl re-draft

I wasn't using ordinary as a slight, rather, more so in the way Jack Dyer used it when he described players as good ordinary players.

Shane Biggs was a good ordinary player. That he won a premiership didn't make him anything other than a good ordinary player who won a premiership. There's plenty of these types littered through AFL history, and there's plenty who have won more flags than Shane Biggs.

Fair enough. Didn't Jack Dyer call Ken Hunter a good ordinary player? Or was it Peter Bosustow?


We wouldn't have won that flag but for the Wall of Biggs. He might be a good ordinary player but there was nothing ordinary about that effort.

[jeemak]

Re: Matthew Richardson's 2004 afl re-draft

I find these arguments ridiculous. Players are only ever able to be as good as their competition at the time, relativism is actually a thing.

However, Buddy stands above relativism. He is an out and out freak and we're lucky to have seen him.

If we're looking at the draft retrospectively and then about what a player brings to a club holistically then tell me, what would Roughead have delivered at Melbourne if he was drafted there? Players are only ever as good as their environment and he goes down in the annuls of history in a similar vein Chris Grant did...…..severely underrated.

Let's just keep it to how they play, and on that front Buddy is a shit tonne better than anyone in that draft and as good a player I've seen.

……..and don't get me started on why it's folly to compare players even from the same era to begin with anyway. Footy is a multi-positional game and those positions are all equally important and require different skills to play them well.

[jeemak]

Re: Matthew Richardson's 2004 afl re-draft

Fair enough. Didn't Jack Dyer call Ken Hunter a good ordinary player? Or was it Peter Bosustow?


We wouldn't have won that flag but for the Wall of Biggs. He might be a good ordinary player but there was nothing ordinary about that effort.

Ken Hunter is the epitome of a good ordinary player! I think Peter Bosustow would have really really upset Jack Dyer.