2020 Player movement

[comrade]

Re: 2020 Player movement

Agreed, our midfield results could be improved with a better ruck combination

I don't know how anyone could watch our game on the weekend and walk away thinking the ruck position is overrated.

When you get the mix right against a side that has it completely wrong, it's a huge advantage.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Re: 2020 Player movement

Agreed, our midfield results could be improved with a better ruck combination

As well as just having someone who can halve each ruck contest. English gets beaten convincingly. In a few boundary throw-ins I saw both Ryder and Marshall just push him aside like he was Caleb Daniel, then grab the ball and dish of a handpass. That absolutely kills us. And add those occasions to loads of ruck contests where he gives up clean tap after clean tap to the opposition ruckman. It's not a recipe for success.

Ruckmen are absolutely valuable. What can be overrated are the hitout stats, but contesting each ruck contest is critical.

[Happy Days]

Re: 2020 Player movement

*deep breath*

Getting Goldstein is not an admission of failure on English, and not saying that he can't be a genuine ruck in the near future. It should have been made obvious by our opposition on the weekend but having tall guys who are athletic, have great skills, are great contested marks and can cover the ground makes you a better side. This isn't two Shane Mumfords we're talking about here, I would be down to field 22 of them.

Forget his age or that he's only a stop gap or whatever, getting Goldstein will get the best out of English (and the rest our our midfield, which is where ALL of our good players play) right now, and put English in the best possible position to be a great ruckman in the longer term.

[The Adelaide Connection]

Re: 2020 Player movement

It’s four years too late, but I wish we aggressively went after Westhoff when Port started inexplicably disrespecting him with one year deals. I still think even now he is worth more to them than the developing Marshall.

We could get him for free possibly as a rookie. He’s old (turned 34 a few days ago), but is it worth doing?

[azabob]

Re: 2020 Player movement

My view with our current ruck set up is that our midfield group cannot be as pro-active as they should be or would like to be!

Currently they need to be re-active and anticipate what the opposition ruckman is going to do.

How much better we would be in clearing the stoppage with a ruckman giving an advantage to Bontempelli, Smith and Dunkely?

[Bornadog]

Re: 2020 Player movement

Ruckmen are absolutely valuable. What can be overrated are the hitout stats, but contesting each ruck contest is critical.

Hitouts are what I am talking about. Contested possession, now that is different.

ContPoss, Stoppages and clearances are not our issue at present. There are a lot of other areas we are deficient in.

[Bornadog]

Re: 2020 Player movement

No it doesn't.

Yes it does.

If you look at the last few GF wins there are some huge differences.

2017 - Rich 28 to Adel 55
2018 - WC 29 to Pies 57
2019 - well it was a whitewash 89 point win with GWS barely competing.

I am not under playing having a good ruckman, but there are plenty other areas of the ground that has more influence.

[comrade]

Re: 2020 Player movement

Yes it does.

If you look at the last few GF wins there are some huge differences.

2017 - Rich 28 to Adel 55
2018 - WC 29 to Pies 57
2019 - well it was a whitewash 89 point win with GWS barely competing.

I am not under playing having a good ruckman, but there are plenty other areas of the ground that has more influence.

A ruck isn't just hitouts. You said rucks are overrated.

[hujsh]

Re: 2020 Player movement

Goldstein would be great but a 1st round pick would reek of desperation and has a decent chance of turning into a terrible trade 2 years down the road.

I think a second round pick is about all you can pay for a 32 year old and that's if we can even convince him to leave.

[Mofra]

Re: 2020 Player movement

2016

West Coast Final - WC 52 to 30

Hawks Final 52 to 35

GC prelim 58 to 40

GF 42 to 40

So we basically got smashed in the Finals except the GF. Swans hardly had the greatest ruckman playing in Naismith and Tippett.

Just proves, rucks are over rated.

We won those games with two rucks, plus we used the third man up more than any other side in the competition that year.

[soupman]

Re: 2020 Player movement

Agreed, our midfield results could be improved with a better ruck combination

And just imagine how relaxing it would be going into games knowing we will hold our own in the ruck (and still have English to use around the ground which is what he excels at).

Also we can't get on our high horse about a proper ruckman not being good enough in general play and thus limiting our side when virtually every other club has one and we fielded Josh Bruce every single game he was available for this year.

[soupman]

Re: 2020 Player movement

Goldstein would be great but a 1st round pick would reek of desperation and has a decent chance of turning into a terrible trade 2 years down the road.

I think a second round pick is about all you can pay for a 32 year old and that's if we can even convince him to leave.

I'd be very open to sending a first rounder to them, and think it is what would make them seriously consider losing him, but I would expect something back.

I would be aiming for something a bit more complex, where we trade our first rounder this year (pick 12) and probably something else of value (second rounder next year?) + maybe a Schache or Young or Lipinski and we get back Goldstein, pick 25 and another pick in the 20's they get for selling one of their other 5 decent players.

Pick 25 + any pick from pick 34 forwards is worth more draft points than 12 so helpful for JUH, so losing 12 is no real loss. So effectively you'd be getting Goldstein for a fringe guy we don't really rate plus a future 2nd, while they get a first rounder for Goldstein.

Win win no?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: 2020 Player movement

And just imagine how relaxing it would be going into games knowing we will hold our own in the ruck (and still have English to use around the ground which is what he excels at).

Also we can't get on our high horse about a proper ruckman not being good enough in general play and thus limiting our side when virtually every other club has one and we fielded Josh Bruce every single game he was available for this year.

The whole "but we lose run if we play 2 rucks" argument is flawed too. I mean, are we really going to miss Richards' routine 7 disposal game by replacing him with a ruck!?

Literally anyone who has played football, and particularly at a higher level, will understand that having a strong ruck is VITAL. Do they need to win every tap? No, but they need to be able to compete and neutralise around the ground, at stoppages and in the air.

The fact that we have some posters pointing out statistics as to why "rucks are overrated" overlooks the fact that our midfield have done incredibly well to DEFENSIVELY combat this every single week for 2+ years. Imagine if instead of being reactive, we could be PROACTIVE.

[1eyedog]

Re: 2020 Player movement

I was surprised to hear that Goldy is 32 and am concerned about the possibility of our future first rounder being pissed against a wall. Still, if we want him we'll have to pay for him. I feel he may have two years in him he's played at a consistently high level for a long time and like I said in an earlier post hopefully our future 1st is a very high teens or even around the pick 20 mark which can be hit and miss.

Can Goldy help us take the next step and help us finish top 4 while he's here? If yes I'm all for it.

Tbh I don't think Bevo is going to go for this at all.

[soupman]

Re: 2020 Player movement

The fact that we have some posters pointing out statistics as to why "rucks are overrated" overlooks the fact that our midfield have done incredibly well to DEFENSIVELY combat this every single week for 2+ years. Imagine if instead of being reactive, we could be PROACTIVE.

This exactly. Our midfield is good despite our ruck division, not because of it. If we improve our ruck division our midfield can only get better. Also if we can find a ruck who is good at hitouts, competent in the air and is happy to stand on the mark for set shots instead of Caleb Daniel we are already so much better than chucking Bruce in there, plus it means English can play almost exclusively the good part of his game, you know where he runs around the field taking marks and linking up play and looking smooth and stuff.