Any surprises here from Andrejs Everitt?

[comrade]

Re: Any surprises here from Andrejs Everitt?

I was under the opinion that they didn't trade him last as they couldn't get his worth and didn't want to give him away cheaply(as he was still contracted), similar to what happen with Hill last year.

Good point. Hill seems to be relishing a 'second chance' and has taken his opportunity. Dre didn't.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Any surprises here from Andrejs Everitt?

Good point. Hill seems to be relishing a 'second chance' and has taken his opportunity. Dre didn't.

Has he? Two okay (and nothing more than okay) games against non-existent opposition hardly counts as turning a career around. Mind you, I really hope he has, but plenty of the footage of his body language hasn't suggested that he's any less laconic in possession these days, and his disposal can still be as sloppy as ever.

Having said that, I think the only and main difference in Hill's performance this year is actually getting more involved in the play from half-back, and that's got nothing to do with attitude but where the coaching staff have played him -- he had the same intensity up front but was getting muscled off the ball as we tried to kick it onto his head. My point is, sure a player can and does change their attitudes, but rarely 180 degrees, and the coaching panel has as much responsibility for how a player is used and performs -- you can't put, say, Jobe Watson at full forward then complain that he lacks intensity because he can't take a pack mark against three gorillas and is too slow and tired from getting smashed around to chase. Sometimes 'lack of intensity' is just lack of confidence, which can be easily shattered in young players by a lack of trust from the coaches, or being used wrongly.

Heck, Harbrow was exactly the same player up forward and back, but was pilloried for being a headless chook with sloppy skills up forward but seen as a near-AA half-back. The point being that where and how a player is used can really impact on the perception of their performance.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Any surprises here from Andrejs Everitt?

The comment on 6 players, well it could be ten or more, I am not sure if you are trying to blame the club for this. You don't know these things when you recruit at age 17/18. The years from 18 to 20 are the years where most teenagers either drop off from elite sport or they have the passion in them to go on with it. The drop out rate is unbelievable and a lot of them don't want to put the hard work in to make it to the top. This is not a fault of our club, its just part of life.

So what's the point of all that interviewing and external testing that the players get prior to draft day?

And are you saying that there isn't a difference between a club that recruits well and one that doesn't? That it's all just a crapshoot and based on luck, and that culture and development has nothing to do with how a player turns out?

If it WAS ten or more we would need a serious review of our recruitment and development areas. Make no mistake, in such an even competition recruitment and development are the areas you can least afford to get wrong. Just ask Wallet re: Richmond.

Go down to the club and have a look at the facilities, the number of coaches, the fitness training, the recovery facilities, the physios etc etc and you will see these kids are given every chance. The difference between making it and not making it is a fine line and its mostly in the head.

All the more reason to draft accordingly, right? If the difference is as fine as you've said, then why would we pick players with questionable attitudes to begin with? I've complimented the club on seeming to change their policies in light of recent failures, but as recently as last year we went for a player that was NEVER right in the head/attitude for AFL and didn't last more than half a year on the list (injury or not).

For some clubs, attitude is a non-negotiable with every player that they bring on to their list, so they will generally choose a marginally less 'talented' player with a better attitude vs one with marginally more talent (at 18, mind you) with a questionable attitude. Clubs like Sydney, Essendon and Geelong (and yes, Collingwood) have gone down this route. There are players in Collingwood's 22 that are so-so on skills but will play hard and follow their instructions to the letter. We seem to have done the reverse, where talent is the non-negotiable, not the attitude. Hawthorn are the extreme example of that bias. That's all well and good, but that's why Hawthorn cleared out 11 damaged players on their list last year, most of them 1st and 2nd round picks, are as inconsistent as the weather from year to year, and has a shithouse culture. That may also be why our consistency is all over the place and every week we have Rocket telling us that such-and-such player isn't following instructions, there are at least 3 players that have played in the last couple of weeks that are still 50/50 on the intensity issue, or that our entire midfield group fell asleep for Round 1.

I'm not bagging our entire recruitment strategy -- we've obviously done very well in many areas, but if Rocket has such a problem with low-intensity types I don't know why we seem to keep picking at least one such type in the draft each year.

Everitt was given every chance to prove himself and for example, was told there was one more spot available for the 2010 preliminary final, but guess what he didn't want it bad enough. The club developed him for 3 to 4 years, the club knew he had talent, but it gets back to the individual and sometimes you can only go so far. maybe a change of scenery, maybe something will trigger it and he will get the message that at the elite level you can't just rely on talent alone. There are thousands out there with similar talent, but only a few make it every year.

So we come back to the air swing? Look, the decision to play him or not was the match committee's, but in the few games he played up to that point he certainly wasn't the worst on the park by a long shot. Like Gary, I have no problem with him getting dropped on form or traded if the coaches thought it was best for the team, but I do have a problem with such a ridiculously simplistic way to view a player's attitude and how it shifts blame completely onto the player.

But please you can't blame the club for players lacking intensity and the passion to play.

Who else is there to blame? The players are PART of the club, so if we keep picking low-intensity types who's fault is that? You can't pick a fox and then blame them for eating all the hens. You seem to want to put 100% of the fault on the player, and while they have to take the overwhelming responsibility, many, many decisions made by the club, from recruitment, to development, to peer group culture, to coaching environment, to how the player is used in the structure, is part and parcel of every failure. I'm not saying Andrejs is blameless, he can be a lazy so-and-so, but I think it does the club a disservice to wash its hands of every recruitment that doesn't work out.

[Mantis]

Re: Any surprises here from Andrejs Everitt?

Has he? Two okay (and nothing more than okay) games against non-existent opposition hardly counts as turning a career around. Mind you, I really hope he has, but plenty of the footage of his body language hasn't suggested that he's any less laconic in possession these days, and his disposal can still be as sloppy as ever.

He was also one of the few players who performed to an expected level against Essendon, a game in which most of his peers were very poor.

[Doc26]

Re: Any surprises here from Andrejs Everitt?

Lantern & Gary, concur wholeheartedly with your views on this topic. Andrejs is not blameless, he has a big role to play in first reaching and staying at a required level. However the Club in this instance must take some degree of responsibility with what unfortunately ended up being a failed project with a high draft selection just as in the workplace where managers should be held in part responsible for poor recruitment practices, for not providing appropriate mentoring and support, or for neglecting ongoing staff development with the aim of bringing about a highly motivated and functioning Team. I see it as a cop out, and as would my management, if I could simply lay all blame on my direct reports for them failing to reach agreed objectives. The debate and point of difference here is really about who should wear responsibility for a failed project, to put it ALL on Andrejs is shortsighted and won't get us anywhere if that's accepted by the Club.

[GVGjr]

Re: Any surprises here from Andrejs Everitt?

I was under the opinion that they didn't trade him last as they couldn't get his worth and didn't want to give him away cheaply(as he was still contracted), similar to what happen with Hill last year.

My understanding was the club would not trade unless another club was prepared to pay over the odds to get him. At the time he was regarded as a required player but not so 12 months later.

As I have previously mentioned laconic players like Everitt frustrate me so I can understand why the club makes the move but blaming just the player I don't think is correct. He's a large part of the problem but not 100% of it.

[Desipura]

Re: Any surprises here from Andrejs Everitt?

My understanding was the club would not trade unless another club was prepared to pay over the odds to get him. At the time he was regarded as a required player but not so 12 months later.

As I have previously mentioned laconic players like Everitt frustrate me so I can understand why the club makes the move but blaming just the player I don't think is correct. He's a large part of the problem but not 100% of it.

We have a history of recruiting a number of laconic types ie Ray, Power, Stack, Everitt & Hill to name just a few.

[Bornadog]

Re: Any surprises here from Andrejs Everitt?

We have a history of recruiting a number of laconic types ie Ray, Power, Stack, Everitt & Hill to name just a few.

You can't just say this is a Western Bulldogs thing. All clubs have this type, because the point I am making there is a massive jump in the intensity required at AFL to TEAL cup or VFL. Some players make the leap forward and others don't. Ray has now played in several grandfinals and is doing the job the Saints want him to. Stack is going in harder this year and just lacked confidence and Hill had personal problems that influenced him but hopefully are now resolved. What I am saying is others like Everitt are given the opportunity but sometimes they don't take that opportunity. Maybe Everitt needed a change in work environment, we don't all get along with our work mates.

[Bornadog]

Re: Any surprises here from Andrejs Everitt?

So what's the point of all that interviewing and external testing that the players get prior to draft day?

And are you saying that there isn't a difference between a club that recruits well and one that doesn't? That it's all just a crapshoot and based on luck, and that culture and development has nothing to do with how a player turns out? .

Don't put words into my mouth. All that testing, and interviewing could turn to crack shit if something within the players brain changes. I have spoken to many elite sporting coaches, including Bill Davoren who has been to three plus Olympics and upteen Commwealth games and they all say the same thing about teenagers and the drop out rate. I am not just talking Footy but all sports suffer the same thing. Talented individuals who all of a sudden decide they want to do something else. They may have gone through the vigorous testing etc, but when they find that there is hard work to do to get to the next level, they either try to hang in or drop out. No one knows why this happens, but it is more pronounced in elite sports that are not as popular.

All the more reason to draft accordingly, right? If the difference is as fine as you've said, then why would we pick players with questionable attitudes to begin with? I've complimented the club on seeming to change their policies in light of recent failures, but as recently as last year we went for a player that was NEVER right in the head/attitude for AFL and didn't last more than half a year on the list (injury or not).

.

Who says we pick players with questionable attitudes? Look not all recruits have the dedication and work ethic of a Libba and Wallis jnr. Most have to learn that to get to that next level you have to work very hard. The club works hard at teaching these kids and then its up to them.

So we come back to the air swing? Look, the decision to play him or not was the match committee's, but in the few games he played up to that point he certainly wasn't the worst on the park by a long shot. Like Gary, I have no problem with him getting dropped on form or traded if the coaches thought it was best for the team, but I do have a problem with such a ridiculously simplistic way to view a player's attitude and how it shifts blame completely onto the player. .

Sounds simplistic, maybe us posters have made it that way. We don't know what happens behind closed doors. For such an important time of the year ie finals, you want all your players focused and listening to the coach, not mucking around giving the MC the wrong message.

Who else is there to blame? The players are PART of the club, so if we keep picking low-intensity types who's fault is that? You can't pick a fox and then blame them for eating all the hens. You seem to want to put 100% of the fault on the player, and while they have to take the overwhelming responsibility, many, many decisions made by the club, from recruitment, to development, to peer group culture, to coaching environment, to how the player is used in the structure, is part and parcel of every failure. I'm not saying Andrejs is blameless, he can be a lazy so-and-so, but I think it does the club a disservice to wash its hands of every recruitment that doesn't work out.

I don't agree we pick low intensity types, you just made that up.

Of course the club has to take responsibility IF they don't look after a player, however, I believe we do look after players and we give them every chance to improve.

Go down to the club and see what is in place. Besides the facilities the support structure is fantastic. Of course it can be improved, but hey that requires more coaches, more staff and unfortunatley we don't have the funds for that.

[Doc26]

Re: Any surprises here from Andrejs Everitt?

You can't just say this is a Western Bulldogs thing. All clubs have this type, because the point I am making there is a massive jump in the intensity required at AFL to TEAL cup or VFL. Some players make the leap forward and others don't. Ray has now played in several grandfinals and is doing the job the Saints want him to. Stack is going in harder this year and just lacked confidence and Hill had personal problems that influenced him but hopefully are now resolved. What I am saying is others like Everitt are given the opportunity but sometimes they don't take that opportunity. Maybe Everitt needed a change in work environment, we don't all get along with our work mates.

Agree BD although when looking for any competitive edge those that do perform better in this area are likely to reap rewards for it against those that may find some comfort in laying blame on others. I'm not saying we do, but if the Club makes an assessment that the failing of Everitt at out Club was all of his own doing, absolving itself of any responsibility other than to cut him loose, without learning from its mistakes whether back to recruitment philosophy or development practice then we will struggle against our competitors that do place value in self assessment.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Re: Any surprises here from Andrejs Everitt?

We have a history of recruiting a number of laconic types ie Ray, Power, Stack, Everitt & Hill to name just a few.

Murphy

[Bornadog]

Re: Any surprises here from Andrejs Everitt?

but if the Club makes an assessment that the failing of Everitt at out Club was all of his own doing, absolving itself of any responsibility other than to cut him loose, without learning from its mistakes whether back to recruitment philosophy or development practice then we will struggle against our competitors that do place value in self assessment.

Only the Club knows this, we can only judge from the outside.

36 games tells you he was given every chance. Sometimes players just don't fit in with a club and they have to part ways.

[Desipura]

Re: Any surprises here from Andrejs Everitt?

Murphy

I did not say its a bad thing so I dont know what you mean? You can add Higgins & Lake in there.

[comrade]

Re: Any surprises here from Andrejs Everitt?

I did not say its a bad thing so I dont know what you mean? You can add Higgins & Lake in there.

And Cooney.

[Desipura]

Re: Any surprises here from Andrejs Everitt?

And Cooney.

Gilbee & Gia as well although he has an intense look about him, has a laconic style though the way he plays.