Essendon, Bulldogs embroiled in racial vilification shame

[jeemak]

Re: Essendon, Bulldogs embroiled in racial vilification shame

But who's to say the attributes outside of those deemed critical to perform in the role held by the Indian and Korean candidates aren't as valuable as knowledge of Australian formative experiences and sport?

Who said anything about the Australian fitting in with the rest of the staff? From the information presented it's only the hiring manager that went to the same university and likes discussing Australian formative experiences and Australian sport.

Choosing somebody on their knowledge of Australian sport and formative experiences through being Australian is discriminatory based on race, I would have thought.

[1eyedog]

Re: Essendon, Bulldogs embroiled in racial vilification shame

I have to agree wholeheartedly. I was talking about workplaces recently as my pet academic topic is something called 'emotional labour'. As a part of that discussion someone who works very high up in a global conglomerate asked me to think about racism in these terms...

3 people go for the final interview process for a job. One Indian, one Korean and one anglo saxon Aussie who went to a similar university to yours, knows Aussie sport and you can talk about contemporary Aussie formative experiences with them. All three are determined exactly suitable as each other to have the position, who do you decide to employ?

If you answer the Aussie, is that a form of passive and indirect racism?

I'm sure some would have differing opinions.

It's a good question with no clear-cut answer. I think this is one of the reasons why multi-nationals / larger corporations have expert HR and recruitment staff on deck who consider a combination of criteria (including rigorous personality interviews and surely no two people will be exactly the same in this particular category). Maybe the company has a particular type of personality they are after. If the interviewer is Indian and he / she selects the Indian candidate I guess the same applies. Many of the interviews I have been involved in have had a large number of 'interviewers' which has always raised my hopes that any inherent biases that surface in one on one interviews are eliminated by the common sense of the 'many'.

[Greystache]

Re: Essendon, Bulldogs embroiled in racial vilification shame

I have to agree wholeheartedly. I was talking about workplaces recently as my pet academic topic is something called 'emotional labour'. As a part of that discussion someone who works very high up in a global conglomerate asked me to think about racism in these terms...

3 people go for the final interview process for a job. One Indian, one Korean and one anglo saxon Aussie who went to a similar university to yours, knows Aussie sport and you can talk about contemporary Aussie formative experiences with them. All three are determined exactly suitable as each other to have the position, who do you decide to employ?

If you answer the Aussie, is that a form of passive and indirect racism?

I'm sure some would have differing opinions.

Working in a large bank I would say they would choose either of the two who aren't the Australian. Divisions have diversity targets they need to hit or they have to put in an explanation for not doing so. If there's 2 EQUALLY matched candidates the Aussie is very little chance because it's an easy win for diversity, and reduces the chances down the track of having to hire an inferior candidate to make diversity quota.

It's even more extreme when it comes to women. If a senior role comes up and a woman doesn't get it, even if the potential candidates are under qualified, the hiring manager needs to justify their hiring decision.

I'm sure out in the 'burbs it's different, but most of the ASX top 10's all have similar policies.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Essendon, Bulldogs embroiled in racial vilification shame

Working in a large bank I would say they would choose either of the two who aren't the Australian. Divisions have diversity targets they need to hit or they have to put in an explanation for not doing so. If there's 2 EQUALLY matched candidates the Aussie is very little chance because it's an easy win for diversity, and reduces the chances down the track of having to hire an inferior candidate to make diversity quota.

It's even more extreme when it comes to women. If a senior role comes up and a woman doesn't get it, even if the potential candidates are under qualified, the hiring manager needs to justify their hiring decision.

I'm sure out in the 'burbs it's different, but most of the ASX top 10's all have similar policies.

Gail Kelly has set out that all management positions will be 50/50 in 10 years hasn't she?

[Bornadog]

Re: Essendon, Bulldogs embroiled in racial vilification shame

But who's to say the attributes outside of those deemed critical to perform in the role held by the Indian and Korean candidates aren't as valuable as knowledge of Australian formative experiences and sport?

Who said anything about the Australian fitting in with the rest of the staff? From the information presented it's only the hiring manager that went to the same university and likes discussing Australian formative experiences and Australian sport.

Choosing somebody on their knowledge of Australian sport and formative experiences through being Australian is discriminatory based on race, I would have thought.

This is a mind field.

I would choose the applicant that will fit in with the rest of the work culture and be a team player, no matter what their race.

[Murphy'sLore]

Re: Essendon, Bulldogs embroiled in racial vilification shame

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, 'fitting in' with the dominant culture could easily be used as an excuse to only hire candidates with similar ethnicity, class and gender. How can you ever promote diversity if 'fitting in' is used as a primary criterion for employment?

Maybe we prize conformity more than we should. How about valuing creativity, lateral thinking, seeing things from a different angle, all of which might be enhanced by coming from a different background and a diversity of life experiences.

[Greystache]

Re: Essendon, Bulldogs embroiled in racial vilification shame

Gail Kelly has set out that all management positions will be 50/50 in 10 years hasn't she?

Yes, and most of the other banks have a similar goal.

I don't want to derail the thread, but there has been some ridiculous situations where a new senior management appointment HAS to be a woman, and with no one suitable to step up, there have been people promoted to roles where their manager now reports to them. At times the male overlooked for the role is given the instruction to help their new manager cope in their role.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Essendon, Bulldogs embroiled in racial vilification shame

Yes, and most of the other banks have a similar goal.

I don't want to derail the thread, but there has been some ridiculous situations where a new senior management appointment HAS to be a woman, and with no one suitable to step up, there have been people promoted to roles where their manager now reports to them. At times the male overlooked for the role is given the instruction to help their new manager cope in their role.

It's just the way of the new world where merit has changing levels. For example, impediments in the physical tests for the police were eliminated to allow more women to get in and then the scales were changed in total enter scores where the bar was higher for men, who is turn were overlooked despite being better candidates from an objective point of view (the enter score). Accordingly 2003 onwards women accounted for 70% of most new police recruit squads.

I guess it's a matter of opinion as to whether this is genuine equality or not.

[Bornadog]

Re: Essendon, Bulldogs embroiled in racial vilification shame

Yes, and most of the other banks have a similar goal.

I don't want to derail the thread, but there has been some ridiculous situations where a new senior management appointment HAS to be a woman, and with no one suitable to step up, there have been people promoted to roles where their manager now reports to them. At times the male overlooked for the role is given the instruction to help their new manager cope in their role.

It's just the way of the new world where merit has changing levels. For example, impediments in the physical tests for the police were eliminated to allow more women to get in and then the scales were changed in total enter scores where the bar was higher for men, who is turn were overlooked despite being better candidates from an objective point of view (the enter score). Accordingly 2003 onwards women accounted for 70% of most new police recruit squads.

I guess it's a matter of opinion as to whether this is genuine equality or not.

These policies have only arisen because in the past there have been prejudices against women and race and now change is being forced to get the balance back.

You can blame the baby boomers

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Essendon, Bulldogs embroiled in racial vilification shame

These policies have only arisen because in the past there have been prejudices against women and race and now change is being forced to get the balance back.

You can blame the baby boomers

I blame the baby boomers and the next generation. This whole giving medals for simply applying or trying, and worse not keeping the score at footy games is rubbish. My neighbour's kid can recall every score and the final score from every game he has ever played. From my worldly view, it's how you deal with the bad things that happen to you, they are formative life lessons. Leaving these lessons to 20 or more years old is a massive employer problem as young workers as an observation cannot take criticism and cause problems when they do get told they're not perfect and mummies little angel. So many IR problems i've been thrown at me because of this. But alas, I digress.

[jeemak]

Re: Essendon, Bulldogs embroiled in racial vilification shame

There's no average kids anymore either, and there haven't been for quite some time. They're all exceptional.

[jeemak]

Re: Essendon, Bulldogs embroiled in racial vilification shame

Back on topic, it's funny how we want to ban people from footy games for saying racist things while a reasonable portion of the public seem to want to make it OK to say racist things directly to and about people through changing legislation.

If 18C is repealed to the extent George Brandis wants it to be, is the AFL going to be faced with a situation whereby people are banned for doing something that's completely legal?

I'm glad the club has taken this proactive step. I'm happy for people to have a good humoured crack at someone for things they can and should probably change about themselves. There's usually enough of that fodder to feed on without having to revert to things people can't change (such as red hair, for instance - which is apparently not OK to have and deserves derision, though I've never understood why).

[LostDoggy]

Re: Essendon, Bulldogs embroiled in racial vilification shame

Back on topic, it's funny how we want to ban people from footy games for saying racist things while a reasonable portion of the public seem to want to make it OK to say racist things directly to and about people through changing legislation.

If 18C is repealed to the extent George Brandis wants it to be, is the AFL going to be faced with a situation whereby people are banned for doing something that's completely legal?

I'm glad the club has taken this proactive step. I'm happy for people to have a good humoured crack at someone for things they can and should probably change about themselves. There's usually enough of that fodder to feed on without having to revert to things people can't change (such as red hair, for instance - which is apparently not OK to have and deserves derision, though I've never understood why).

Wouldn't the AFL just make it part of ground entry/supporter code of conduct that it's illegal?

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Essendon, Bulldogs embroiled in racial vilification shame

Wouldn't the AFL just make it part of ground entry/supporter code of conduct that it's illegal?

Yeah, it would be a pre-condition of entry on either the ticket or sign at the gates if it's not already.

[jeemak]

Re: Essendon, Bulldogs embroiled in racial vilification shame

Wouldn't the AFL just make it part of ground entry/supporter code of conduct that it's illegal?

Yeah, it would be a pre-condition of entry on either the ticket or sign at the gates if it's not already.

Probably, and I suppose it would be difficult to contend being a racist at the football is contributing to public debate - in good faith.

I suppose for the ignorant types out there who already struggle with what is and isn't OK to say at the football, banning them for something that will unlikely be punishable in broader society will probably confuse the issue for them.