Western Bulldogs V Essendon - Pre-Season 15/2/25 Whitten Oval 2.00pm

[jeemak]

Tim re-signed cos no one else wanted him.

Nobody else wanted him at a price beyond what we wouldn't pay.

Outside of maybe Melbourne, Fremantle and Brisbane at a guess plus a couple more every single team in the competition would have taken English for big bucks if he didn't have his concussion issues over the last preseason and subsequent season's output.

Tim's malaise was to our benefit, and that's literally the only reason why we retained him at the price we did.

[Mofra]

Nobody else wanted him at a price beyond what we wouldn't pay.

Outside of maybe Melbourne, Fremantle and Brisbane at a guess plus a couple more every single team in the competition would have taken English for big bucks if he didn't have his concussion issues over the last preseason and subsequent season's output.

Tim's malaise was to our benefit, and that's literally the only reason why we retained him at the price we did.

There may have been offers slightly higher than ours, but it normally takes a premium to get a player out of a club.

Given our game plan relies on speed of ball movement it's not hard to see why we value a ruck who is good in transition over a ruck who is good at hit outs.

I'm still torn as I think the best attributes a ruck can bring is the "non stat" stuff - Ben Hudson was brilliant at this. Using his body to create space for the mids and getting back to complete at the long down the line opposition kicks.

[doggies ftw]

Given our game plan relies on speed of ball movement it's not hard to see why we value a ruck who is good in transition over a ruck who is good at hit outs.

Does it? They’d have me confused then.

Our game plan relies on stoppage dominance, repeat entries and time in forward half. Pretty much the antithesis of speed & ball movement

[doggies ftw]

Change that too.
There is a dislike for our rucks letting us down every time we play finals.

For me it’s just as much about what Tim could do unburdened with the ruck, he could be one of the most unique weapons in the comp floating back & forward, kicking goals dropping in the hole and using his skills and athleticism around the ground - behind an actual ruckman taking the brunt of the heavy lifting. No other team has an answer for what he could be, yet we’d prefer to waste him as a workhouse whose average at best amongst his peers?

Weve consistently missed such a big trick on this refusing to try an alternative, when we have a unicorn sitting there waiting to be unleashed and we’re using it to plow the fields. Imagine the oppo trying to find an answer for both Darce and English terrorising the air battle across the field whilst someone like Crossley (preferably better) protects our midfield and puts the ball on a platter for them.

Mind numbing - we’d be better in the midfield and better everywhere else but nah let’s keep doing the same thing over and over. Been treating us well so far I guess with all those seasons of not winning finals!

[Axe Man]

For me it’s just as much about what Tim could do unburdened with the ruck, he could be one of the most unique weapons in the comp floating back & forward, kicking goals dropping in the hole and using his skills and athleticism around the ground - behind an actual ruckman taking the brunt of the heavy lifting. No other team has an answer for what he could be, yet we’d prefer to waste him as a workhouse whose average at best amongst his peers?

Weve consistently missed such a big trick on this refusing to try an alternative, when we have a unicorn sitting there waiting to be unleashed and we’re using it to plow the fields. Imagine the oppo trying to find an answer for both Darce and English terrorising the air battle across the field whilst someone like Crossley (preferably better) protects our midfield and puts the ball on a platter for them.

Mind numbing - we’d be better in the midfield and better everywhere else but nah let’s keep doing the same thing over and over. Been treating us well so far I guess with all those seasons of not winning finals!

To me that is Tim's strength and what he does in the ruck when playing well anyway.

How would it work if he was roaming but not in the ruck? Is he playing midfield or are we going 1 short in the forward line?

[Mofra]

Does it? They’d have me confused then.

Our game plan relies on stoppage dominance, repeat entries and time in forward half. Pretty much the antithesis of speed & ball movement

In 2023 it was.
There's a reason we stuck with Bramble at the start of last year. We transitioned from bottom 4 to top 4 in D50 transition to F50 entries. It was a focus last pre-season and it looks like we're trying to speed that movement up again.

[Bornadog]

To me that is Tim's strength and what he does in the ruck when playing well anyway.

How would it work if he was roaming but not in the ruck? Is he playing midfield or are we going 1 short in the forward line?

Doesn't make sense. We win the clearances and stoppages with Tim in the ruck, so what is the big deal. Tim then plays like an oversized mid when there is no ruck contest. The constant bagging of the bloke is getting beyond ridiculous.

[doggies ftw]

To me that is Tim's strength and what he does in the ruck when playing well anyway.

How would it work if he was roaming but not in the ruck? Is he playing midfield or are we going 1 short in the forward line?

It is what he does in the ruck but I think we could amplify those strengths and hide his weaknesses. He’s a unique player so he should have a unique role.

Id start him on the wing a lot, not playing a traditional wingers role but let him push back or forward to create a mismatch depending on game situation, momentum, how he sees the play unfolding etc. Can present an option coming out of defence with his smart link up play or in a pack situation, can build a wall to keep the ball inside 50.

Will also still ruck 30% of the game (just will have generally a better match up against Oppos 2nds etc and will stay fresh) and will still start deep forward quite a bit as part of rotations like every other 2nd ruck in the comp.

Would also allow us to go shorter in either the forward line or backline or both, as a lot of people wish for. Ie id only run the two talls down back with Timmy having more freedom to push back to help out aerially.

I’m sure the coaches can come up with something that’s what they’re paid for, Tim is an amazing footballer with such a unique skillset he should be a weapon, he’s not a ruckman though. At the moment we use him where he’s average at best amongst other rucks it’s just a waste of resources.

[doggies ftw]

Doesn't make sense. We win the clearances and stoppages with Tim in the ruck, so what is the big deal. Tim then plays like an oversized mid when there is no ruck contest. The constant bagging of the bloke is getting beyond ridiculous.

We win the clearances and stoppages a lot of the time yes sure, props to Bont, Libba, Treloar & co who are one of the best inside mid groups in the comp. When we dominate the clearances & stoppages we generally win the game, it’s what we rely on. Against worse midfields yeah generally we can make do because our core is so elite, but as soon as we’re somewhat matched in the midfield the ruck demolition job kills any chance we have.

Go watch the games we lost last year, not just look at the stats go watch them and watch English closely and you’ll start to see what the issue is. I’m not talking about his disposal stats, go watch what happened around the contest, go read the game day threads at the time.

Hawks final? English humiliated in the ruck
Crows, English humiliated in the ruck
Port, Sweet bullied him in the ruck

that’s our last 3 losses, there’s a pattern - we were bullied around the ball in all those games, and it started with a genuine pants pulling in the ruck contests. When we lose the midfield battle we lose the game, it’s our one wood and too often our ruckman is bullied, this is where it starts. it’s all too familiar but everyone forgets and goes back through the stats after the year and says well he had 15 & a goal he wasn’t that bad.

No one is abusing the guy, he’s a brilliant footballer & athlete, with an elite skill set, he’s just a poor ruckman. It’s not his fault we keep playing him there.

[Sedat]

How would it work if he was roaming but not in the ruck? Is he playing midfield or are we going 1 short in the forward line?

The "English as primary 1st ruck" detractors (of which I'm one) don't want him out of the ruck completely. We just don't want him bashing in there at 80-90% of stoppages, because a) he's proven over many years now that he doesn't have the unflinching physical appetite (or the technique) to compete 90% game time in ruck against the better teams, and b) that physical toll reduces the effectiveness of his elite traits in other key areas, specifically covering the ground/linking up with ball movement and his excellent disposal skills (especially important with our fast transition/ball movement game plan in 2024).

Either you have a dog-hungry appetite to compete physically all the time or you don't. When you are predominantly 1st ruck you have no choice, and history has not been kind to English in the big games that really matter. The 2024 EF was a sobering experience - someone in their 8th year in the system should have wiped the floor against a younger and less talented opponent, but the complete opposite happened (not for the first time in big games).

[jeemak]

We would get murdered if we used Tim as a wing or an onballer, and also had a ruck running around.

His ideal role would be second ruck, but for some reason he doesn't want that and the club has ceded to his preferences.

[jeemak]

I'm still torn as I think the best attributes a ruck can bring is the "non stat" stuff - Ben Hudson was brilliant at this. Using his body to create space for the mids and getting back to complete at the long down the line opposition kicks.

I honestly think Ben Hudson was one of the most overrated footballers to ever play for us, but I'm on my own with that!

[Mofra]

I honestly think Ben Hudson was one of the most overrated footballers to ever play for us, but I'm on my own with that!

Nets

[Bornadog]

No one is abusing the guy, he’s a brilliant footballer & athlete, with an elite skill set, he’s just a poor ruckman. It’s not his fault we keep playing him there.

I think as average as Crossley is, and he’s VFL standard at best, the club is starting to realise how important a genuine ruckman is and English isn’t a ruckmans asshole.

Clearly you and I (and a few others on Woof) have a different opinion on what a ruckmans role is in the modern game.

I will leave it at that.

[Before I Die]

We would get murdered if we used Tim as a wing or an onballer, and also had a ruck running around.

His ideal role would be second ruck, but for some reason he doesn't want that and the club has ceded to his preferences.

So it’s his fault he is not a bullocking ruck and it is his fault the club plays him as a first ruck. You might as well throw in climate change and inflation as well.