The "Prince Imperials" Name

[BiteNibbleChomp]

Saw BornInDroopSt'54's post in the round 4 predictions thread, and got reminded of something that's been bugging me for ages... does anyone know why on earth we thought the Prince Imperial was important enough, at least in Australia, to name a footy club after?

To me it just seems really odd - the Prince himself was just 14 when his father got overthrown and 23 when he died, and had been a junior military officer without much claim to fame beyond being Napoleon III's son... and Napoleon III had been well past his prime at the time he got overthrown, almost needing to be carried to the battle of Sedan (which again was nine years in the past at the PI's death).

Was this just a case of someone reading the news and getting way too carried away with an idea, or is there something more to it that I'm missing?

- BNC

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I have no idea, but awesome post and I look forward to following this thread

[angelopetraglia]

From Chat GPT.



Napoléon, Prince Imperial, resonated with people in places like Australia for several intertwined reasons:

• Imperial Connection: At a time when Australia was part of the British Empire, his involvement with British colonial forces and his untimely death in a colonial conflict made him a sympathetic figure who seemed connected to the imperial project. His story was incorporated into the larger narrative of empire and sacrifice.

• Romantic and Tragic Image: His life story, marked by the promise of restoring a grand dynasty and ending in a tragic, heroic death, captured the public’s imagination. This romantic narrative made him an enduring symbol of lost potential and noble sacrifice, themes that appealed widely to those living in the colonies.

• Media and Public Sentiment: Newspapers and periodicals in Australia and elsewhere in the Empire often portrayed him as a gallant, almost mythic figure. His dramatic story provided a captivating counterpoint to the more mundane realities of colonial life, enhancing his popularity among the public.

• Symbol of Hope and Change: For some, he symbolized the possibility of change and the promise of a better future—an appealing notion in rapidly evolving colonial societies where issues of identity and progress were very much on the public mind.

These factors combined to make the Prince Imperial not just a figure of European history, but also a celebrated and romanticized character in the cultural and imperial consciousness of countries like Australia.

[hujsh]

I was going to say because Australians in that time were simps for colonialism but looks like ChatGPT said the same with more flowery language

[Grantysghost]

There's some stuff here but not definitive :

https://www.fnwb.com.au/heritage/early-history/

Footscray grew and in the 1870’s civic minded citizens formed an Australian Rules football club for the municipality. Some historians claim that the original Footscray Football Club was founded in 1876. This has led to debate as to whether this was the same autonomous organisation in 1883, which has usually been the accepted defining year for the birth of the Footscray Football Club. The initial Footscray Football Club appeared to change its name to the Prince Imperial Football Club. The Prince Imperial was Louis Napoleon, the heir to the French throne. The Prince was killed during a confrontation with some Zulu warriors in Africa in 1879.
We today would consider this unusual for an Australian town of a British colony in the 1880’s being deferential to a French dignitary. Less than 70 years earlier the French and British were fighting each other in the Napoleonic Wars. This was the just another war between the English and the French in the centuries old history of antagonism between these two peoples which dates back to the earlier mentioned 1066 Battle of Hastings, during the era of our hero the great Saxon chieftain Godwin Fot. However the Prince Napoleon was with the English at the time of his death and was thus ‘A good guy’ so the Imperial name carried the day for a few years.

However the now named Prince Imperial did not encounter success and by 1882 it was decided that that name be dropped for the original Footscray. This is direct passage from page 11 of ‘Unleashed’

In 1882 a decision was taken to drop the name Prince Imperials and 1883 came to be regarded as the first year of the Footscray Football Club. The Victorian Junior Football Association (VJFA) was being reformed for the 1883 season. Lovett recalled that, ‘Because of the ‘Prince Imperials’ name, ‘very few knew we were a Footscray side… Footscray was growing in importance (so) it was decided to start the ensuing season with a club named after our town’

[BornInDroopSt'54]

I thought the fact that Footscray was a major port and was growing with migrants, made them aware of the world and certainly the now dreaded colonialism.
Grantysghost quote tells us the Prince Imperial was fighting for the British when killed.
There must be a movie about it or a novel.
I guess we were rw&b prior to becoming Prince Imperials so the name changes were facilitated.

[hujsh]

I thought the fact that Footscray was a major port and was growing with migrants, made them aware of the world and certainly the now dreaded colonialism.
Grantysghost quote tells us the Prince Imperial was fighting for the British when killed.
There must be a movie about it or a novel.
I guess we were rw&b prior to becoming Prince Imperials so the name changes were facilitated.

Really depends where they're migrating from and why. Ireland? Sure could well understand. Most of the rest of Western Europe? Probably loved colonialism and Australia's role in it. Doubt many migrants from states subject to colonialism were coming in at that time aside from Ireland TBH.

And even if they do come from a country like that it also depends what the reason was for leaving and what their position in society was before they left (big difference between most Cubans and the Cubans who left to join the US post revolution for example)

[BiteNibbleChomp]

There's some stuff here but not definitive :

https://www.fnwb.com.au/heritage/early-history/

Footscray grew and in the 1870’s civic minded citizens formed an Australian Rules football club for the municipality. Some historians claim that the original Footscray Football Club was founded in 1876. This has led to debate as to whether this was the same autonomous organisation in 1883, which has usually been the accepted defining year for the birth of the Footscray Football Club. The initial Footscray Football Club appeared to change its name to the Prince Imperial Football Club. The Prince Imperial was Louis Napoleon, the heir to the French throne. The Prince was killed during a confrontation with some Zulu warriors in Africa in 1879.
We today would consider this unusual for an Australian town of a British colony in the 1880’s being deferential to a French dignitary. Less than 70 years earlier the French and British were fighting each other in the Napoleonic Wars. This was the just another war between the English and the French in the centuries old history of antagonism between these two peoples which dates back to the earlier mentioned 1066 Battle of Hastings, during the era of our hero the great Saxon chieftain Godwin Fot. However the Prince Napoleon was with the English at the time of his death and was thus ‘A good guy’ so the Imperial name carried the day for a few years.

However the now named Prince Imperial did not encounter success and by 1882 it was decided that that name be dropped for the original Footscray. This is direct passage from page 11 of ‘Unleashed’

In 1882 a decision was taken to drop the name Prince Imperials and 1883 came to be regarded as the first year of the Footscray Football Club. The Victorian Junior Football Association (VJFA) was being reformed for the 1883 season. Lovett recalled that, ‘Because of the ‘Prince Imperials’ name, ‘very few knew we were a Footscray side… Footscray was growing in importance (so) it was decided to start the ensuing season with a club named after our town’

Very interesting!

Though it is a bit odd that the author here brings up the Napoleonic Wars, but not Crimea - which was much more recent (1854), and also saw Britain and France fighting on the same side. Indeed Napoleon III's whole foreign policy can be summed up as "whatever you do, don't annoy the British", and he did live in England both as a young man and also after he got overthrown in 1870. So it's not totally random that British people would by sympathetic to him.

Although... going from being sympathetic to "hey let's name our footy club after his son" is still quite the stretch.

- BNC

[BiteNibbleChomp]

There must be a movie about it or a novel.

About the PI himself I don't think there's a movie. I had a quick look on Amazon and there's a couple of books, although they're expensive and quite short (makes sense though, he was only 23 when he died).
For the war, 'Zulu' (1964) is worth a watch. Doesn't have anything to do with the PI though.

For Napoleon III, I haven't picked up a biography of him just yet, but the one I've got on my (admittedly very long) to-read list is 'The Shadow Emperor' by Alan Strauss-Schom. That one seems to be the best from the reviews I looked at.
I can recommend from experience 'The Franco-Prussian War' by Geoffrey Wawro which covers the war that saw the downfall of Napoleon III's regime. Wawro describes stupidity and bad decision making better than just about anyone I've ever read, and let's just say there's no shortage of either here!

- BNC

[BornInDroopSt'54]

About the PI himself I don't think there's a movie. I had a quick look on Amazon and there's a couple of books, although they're expensive and quite short (makes sense though, he was only 23 when he died).
For the war, 'Zulu' (1964) is worth a watch. Doesn't have anything to do with the PI though.

For Napoleon III, I haven't picked up a biography of him just yet, but the one I've got on my (admittedly very long) to-read list is 'The Shadow Emperor' by Alan Strauss-Schom. That one seems to be the best from the reviews I looked at.
I can recommend from experience 'The Franco-Prussian War' by Geoffrey Wawro which covers the war that saw the downfall of Napoleon III's regime. Wawro describes stupidity and bad decision making better than just about anyone I've ever read, and let's just say there's no shortage of either here!

- BNC

Yes a priest took my bro, another kid and me to the drive in to see Zulu went it came out.
I repressed an ongoing giggle during the early scene where beautiful Zulu women danced a war dance without a blouse or bra.
Thereafter is a ripping true story for a kid.

Now I have a particular issue with British colonialism in the land of my ancestry, Ireland, Australia and India, addicted China to opium to get tea for free and the yanks kicked them out for their exploitatation and greed.
My ancestors suffered it with its genocide.

I judge nations as I judge individuals.
Nations are called civilisations yet are like individuals.
So colonialism, most relevant being british were killers of the culture they overcame through military force. Their culture grows more by being vampires and are lauded as civilised history.
An individual would be incarcerated.

Have you checked libraries and ebay for those books? A good chance a 2nd hand one is going cheap or in a library. Your library can get it in for you.
I think that what stirred the British and Australian public was that he fought for the British in a land of mighty indigenous warriors and princes don't normally die in such situations.
Perhaps like FFC with a great player from another club, giving his all for us.