There's too much angst about the 'bottom' of our list

[mjp]

I guess I'm just a little exhausted by all of the 'our top 10 are so good but our bottom 6 are SOOOOOOO BAD' comments lately - so I thought I'd have a quick squiz at our oppo for this week (everyone's second favourite team, the ORANGE!).

The tippy top of the list - blokes at the PEAK of their powers.
Toby
Jesse Hogan
Tom Green
Finn Callaghan
Sam Taylor
Lachie Ash
Idun (might surprise to see him here but just an incredibly versatile and flexible defender)
You could add Daniels but since he's hardly played for 2 years...

ONCE was incredible...now clearly on the downside of whatever it is.
Coniglio
Kelly
Whitfield
** Stringer

On the up - could maybe become an A+ but most likely a B-ish type player
Cadman
Jones

Kinda replacement level but would play in most sides
Briggs
Himmelberg
Bedford
Bucklely

Needs to be at their best to compete each week
Ricciardi
O'Halloran
Fonti
Brown

I mean, your opinions on the likes of Harvey Thomas and James Leake obviously need to be considered here...pro/against - whatevs 'cos they are on the fringe whatever they are...

The 22/23 the Giants are sending out each week has strengths and weaknesses just like everyone else...celebrating the likes of Joe Fonti whilst dismissing the efforts of - say, Dolan or Davidson - kind of misses the point...whilst the former (Fonti) has had some good moments so have each of the latter. Now - I get that there's gonna be some finger pointing at LMN, VDM as well as the likes of JJ, Bramble etc...but you could fire shots at a few of the Giants aging vets as well as the inconsistencies of players like Brown and Ricciardi.

There are NO perfect footy teams. Trying to blame the 'bottom 6' or whatever for our lack of wins against the other top sides is naive at best and simply unfair at worst...I get it that if Bont has 37 then it can't be his fault...at the same time, if he'd had an extra 2 touches it probably would have had more impact than had LMN had his first two touches!

There are no perfect footy teams.

[jazzadogs]

I did a similar thought experiment with McNeil, after I criticised his game as a small forward in a 90 point win.

Dogs def Dons by 90
McNeil 0.0, 7 touches, 6 tackles, 20 pressure acts

Cats def Norf by 90
Brad Close 0.2, 11 touches, 4 tackles, 111m gained, 21 pressure acts

Crows def Port by 90
Taylor 0.0, 8 touches, 5 tackles, 11 pressure acts

We ignore the bad players in the other good teams, and focus on the weaknesses of our fringe guys rather than what they can bring.

I'm not saying McNeil (or other fringe guys) necessarily had a good game, but it is equivalent to games by small pressure forwards in other top teams. Not all of the 23 needs to be elite if they can play a role.

[mjp]

I did a similar thought experiment with McNeil, after I criticised his game as a small forward in a 90 point win.

McNeil wasn't great against Essendon...but honestly...he's there to apply pressure and prevent the oppo exits. It would be nice if he got the footy sometimes (and it's actually hard to work out how he didn't/doesn't) but ultimately, most weeks he's doing what we're asking him to do.

I don't know - it's always better to get 'more' but...

[Mantis]

mjp -Would be interested to see how this (grouping of players) looks for us... I think we would match up ok at the top end or even have a few more in the ''elite'' group, but think we'd drop away a little quicker than our major competitors for a top 4 or top 8 spot.

[ReLoad]

We’re about 5% off the top teams.

how do we fix/change that? The easiest/lowest hanging fruit is the bottom few players. If we look at our successful years our bottom few all were dedicated role players.

we just don’t have those in the current group, McNeil as an example plays a role, but he just is t great at it.

the bottom 6 is where we can change, and have a near immediate impact.

[Rusty12]

McNeil wasn't great against Essendon...but honestly...he's there to apply pressure and prevent the oppo exits. It would be nice if he got the footy sometimes (and it's actually hard to work out how he didn't/doesn't) but ultimately, most weeks he's doing what we're asking him to do.

I don't know - it's always better to get 'more' but...

As long as he and the bottom 6 selected perform their role and keep the bad errors to a minimum, then that should be enough.
The expectation we have of those players, Vs what their role is, is often out of sync.

What I do expect or hope for, I will give some specific examples that could apply to many players, across many teams.

- Not giving easy handball options, or taking the easy short options vs trying to do too much. Basically, making poor decisions, too often in the forward half
- Missing more than 2/10 tackles
- Back-half turnovers, when a good target is down the line as a simple, easy option, instead of 15m kicks to a contest
- Panicking and giving away dumb free kicks, when their is an outnumber or have things under control
- Not keep ya feet in a contest

The bar is not high, and if players continually fail at this, try another one.

[Mantis]

As long as he and the bottom 6 selected perform their role and keep the bad errors to a minimum, then that should be enough.
The expectation we have of those players, Vs what their role is, is often out of sync.

What I do expect or hope for, I will give some specific examples that could apply to many players, across many teams.

- Not giving easy handball options, or taking the easy short options vs trying to do too much. Basically, making poor decisions, too often in the forward half
- Missing more than 2/10 tackles
- Back-half turnovers, when a good target is down the line as a simple, easy option, instead of 15m kicks to a contest
- Panicking and giving away dumb free kicks, when their is an outnumber or have things under control
- Not keep ya feet in a contest

The bar is not high, and if players continually fail at this, try another one.

Another important task is to take your opportunities when they present.

Using McNeil as the example he missed 3 half/decent chances to convert against Geelong in the last qtr when we were riding the momentum wave... he simply needed to convert a couple of these.

The goal he missed against Sydney in the 2nd qtr was an important one in the context of that match... he converts, and our lead is out past 30+ points, and the air gets sucked out of Sydney, but he misses and soon after they kick a couple of quick ones and it's game on.

I understand the capabilities/abilities of our lower ranked players is the thing that makes them fit into this group and holds them back from being a consistent contributor, but at some point in a game they have the opportunity to really influence the result and every so often they need to step up to the plate.

[kruder]

MJP my issue is that the majority of our talent across the list lies midfield/forward its not a bottom 6 issue per se. We lack serious talent in the back half, I said it in another thread but our list looks like a nice new house without money to spend on the backyard.

Rusty all good points and that has been an issue across the entire team not just the bottom 6.

Can you add not allowing the ball out the back of a contest and also not defending the fat side of a stoppage.

[Scorlibo]

IDK really seems like we do have more of a gulf than most of the other top teams. Doesn't mean we wring our hands. We work with what we've got, which is incredible top end players and some very willing fringe players.

To illustrate the drop off - if you were to combine the two lists and then make a seniors team and a reserves team based on player ratings this season (min 6 games), this is how it looks:

SENIORS

B - Buckley - Taylor - Williams
HB - Dale - Lobb - Ash
C - Callaghan - Green - Harmes
HF - Freijah - Naughton - D. Jones
F - West - Hogan - Darcy
Foll - English - Bontempelli - Richards
I - Idun - Liberatore - Greene - Kennedy

13 Bulldogs - 9 Giants


RESERVES

B - Himmelberg - O'Donnell - Fonti
HB - Whitfield - Aleer - Bramble
C - O'Halloran - Sanders - Davidson
HF - Daniels - Ricciardi - Stringer
F - Brown - Cadman - Vandermeer
Foll - Briggs - Bedford - Kelly
I - Johannisen - Ward - Thomas - Cleary

7 Bulldogs - 15 Giants

[mjp]

So given that means we have 13 of the best 22 on field, we should win comfortably right?

[Axe Man]

So given that means we have 13 of the best 22 on field, we should win comfortably right?

Even more so with Buckley and Greene missing from those 9 Orange players.

[Mofra]

Our Achilles heel is when we don't adequately defend the corridor. That kills us.

That is largely on the millionaire midfield we have assembled, not Johnny 23 on base salary.

[Mantis]

Given mjp didn't have a crack of grading our players like he has the GWS squad I'll give have a go, based on the team we rolled out last week. (Lobb & West probably the hardest to place, but I don't see them quite in the A grade level)

The tippy top of the list - blokes at the PEAK of their powers.
Bont
Ed
Sam (with scope to improve)
Naughts
English
Dale

ONCE was incredible...now clearly on the downside of whatever it is.
Libba
JJ

On the up - could maybe become an A+ but most likely a B-ish type player
Freijah
Sanders

Kinda replacement level but would play in most sides
Lobb
Williams
Kennedy
Bramble
West
JOD

Needs to be at their best to compete each week
Garcia
Busslinger
Baker
Poulter
McNeil
Vandermeer

So, in comparison it looks like: (I took the liberty to add Brown into the solid group and McMullin in the bottom group)

	GWS	WB
A	7	6
Old	4	2
Up & C	2	2
Solid	5	6
Last in	5	6

It's pretty close which should make for a close contest if all play to form.

[mjp]

Great work mate.

JJ needs to slide on down to that bottom group. The 'ONCE WAS INCREDIBLE' shouldn't be a lesson in ANCIENT history.

[Go_Dogs]

Is that Libba rating right? He’s an AA level player this year. Not sure he’s on the way out (I mean, I know he is but his form has been largely excellent).

also, how big a difference it makes having English and Naughton walking around like the best at their position in the comp.