WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

[GVGjr]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

Caleb Daniel started the 3rd and 4th quarters on the bench. I thought it was strange at the time

Can anyone have a guess why we would have done that?

[mjp]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

We seem to fall back on the fact we don't have the cattle after a loss but when we are setting up the list we've rung the right changes.
I don't get it

I'm not sure this is the case. Well, for me it isn't.

We coulda/shoulda/woulda won yesterday. Effort was good and we played well. We kept Collingwood to 17x shots on goal (4 per q) which is really, REALLY good going...and on top of that, we kept them to 3 scoring shots in both q2 and q4. Which is quite simply incredible. Our finishing was a tragedy - theirs was almost perfect...and there you have it.

I understand the complaining about the Grundy/English match-up...and I do understand the English/Trengove/Naughton 'switcheroo' that might have helped equalise that contest. But we are really guessing...was it worth a try? Maybe. But as I feel like I have said repeatedly, we all complain about Bevo throwing players around into 'unfamiliar' roles, but then whenever it suits us we want to do exactly that. If Naughton is to be a forward, then shouldn't we just play him in the forward line (the way everyone wanted Boyd just left there and wants Schache left up there?). If we throw him back everytime their is a sniff of 'trouble' (and yep, maybe yesterday was more than a 'SNIFF') then how does that help.

I think we have hitched our wagon to English. He was a high draft pick and the club has invested a lot of time/effort in him. What we are seeing right now is the reason some clubs hate taking developing ruckman with early draft picks - they aren't ready, and WONT be ready...but the only way to get them ready is to play them and to do so will cost games. How many of the top ruckman in the competition were high draft picks who are still at their original club? Grundy? Is that it? Kruezer? Nic Nat? Are those two even considered 'top ruckman' these days? I enjoy the work of Nankervis who was a mid-round pick by the Swans who was then on-traded to Sydney...and by the way, he played as a 19yo in the 2014 National Champs so was behind the curve in terms of his own development. Darcy at Freo is promising - but pretty sure he was a pick in the 20's...who else??? The Giants - with all their access to early picks - never really selected one. We did. Right or wrong, we are stuck with it now and simply must find a way to make it work.

Personally, I am frustrated by the non-selection of Roberts because he seems to provide us with 'structure' (in the form of an anchor) behind the ball...but it is obvious we don't want to play that way and further obvious that the club is prioritising English in the ruck ahead of other developmental elements...the debate about our mid-sizers is going to rage forever but honestly, that (to me) is on the players, not the MC. If the likes of Williams, Smith, Richards, Webb, Dale, Lynch etc want to play, then PLAY BETTER. The reason they are in and out of the side is because their form isn't what it needs to be. Now I know there are going to be those who say 'maybe if they weren't played out of position, they WOULD play better....'. Well, be that as it may, when you are given lemons you can either complain they you can't make apple sauce or just get on with making lemonade. If you are a mid-sized, young (ish) fringe player trying to make your way, well, get a kick. There really isn't much difference in modern footy between playing in a back pocket (which doesn't really exist as a position) and half forward (which doesn't really exist either)...it is all about getting a strong starting point, beating your opponent to the contest and looking to get involved on the outside when your team-mates have the ball. We make excuses for these guys, but I'm pretty confident (aka 100% certain) that Crozier and JJ didn't venture backward of centre as juniors. Bachar Houli thought 'DE FENCE' was the thing that went around the boundary as an 18yo. Syd Stack hadn't played on a man since Auskick when Richmond sent him to half back (and if you are being critical, he STILL hasn't but that's another story).

Yesterday, we had the cattle and played well enough to win. For one of the first times all season, I thought our defensive effort was of an 'acceptable' standard to win (and was the first time in 5-weeks we have kept our opposition under 100 points).

[KT31]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

I'm not sure this is the case. Well, for me it isn't.

We coulda/shoulda/woulda won yesterday. Effort was good and we played well. We kept Collingwood to 17x shots on goal (4 per q) which is really, REALLY good going...and on top of that, we kept them to 3 scoring shots in both q2 and q4. Which is quite simply incredible. Our finishing was a tragedy - theirs was almost perfect...and there you have it.

I understand the complaining about the Grundy/English match-up...and I do understand the English/Trengove/Naughton 'switcheroo' that might have helped equalise that contest. But we are really guessing...was it worth a try? Maybe. But as I feel like I have said repeatedly, we all complain about Bevo throwing players around into 'unfamiliar' roles, but then whenever it suits us we want to do exactly that. If Naughton is to be a forward, then shouldn't we just play him in the forward line (the way everyone wanted Boyd just left there and wants Schache left up there?). If we throw him back everytime their is a sniff of 'trouble' (and yep, maybe yesterday was more than a 'SNIFF') then how does that help.

I think we have hitched our wagon to English. He was a high draft pick and the club has invested a lot of time/effort in him. What we are seeing right now is the reason some clubs hate taking developing ruckman with early draft picks - they aren't ready, and WONT be ready...but the only way to get them ready is to play them and to do so will cost games. How many of the top ruckman in the competition were high draft picks who are still at their original club? Grundy? Is that it? Kruezer? Nic Nat? Are those two even considered 'top ruckman' these days? I enjoy the work of Nankervis who was a mid-round pick by the Swans who was then on-traded to Sydney...and by the way, he played as a 19yo in the 2014 National Champs so was behind the curve in terms of his own development. Darcy at Freo is promising - but pretty sure he was a pick in the 20's...who else??? The Giants - with all their access to early picks - never really selected one. We did. Right or wrong, we are stuck with it now and simply must find a way to make it work.

Personally, I am frustrated by the non-selection of Roberts because he seems to provide us with 'structure' (in the form of an anchor) behind the ball...but it is obvious we don't want to play that way and further obvious that the club is prioritising English in the ruck ahead of other developmental elements...the debate about our mid-sizers is going to rage forever but honestly, that (to me) is on the players, not the MC. If the likes of Williams, Smith, Richards, Webb, Dale, Lynch etc want to play, then PLAY BETTER. The reason they are in and out of the side is because their form isn't what it needs to be. Now I know there are going to be those who say 'maybe if they weren't played out of position, they WOULD play better....'. Well, be that as it may, when you are given lemons you can either complain they you can't make apple sauce or just get on with making lemonade. If you are a mid-sized, young (ish) fringe player trying to make your way, well, get a kick. There really isn't much difference in modern footy between playing in a back pocket (which doesn't really exist as a position) and half forward (which doesn't really exist either)...it is all about getting a strong starting point, beating your opponent to the contest and looking to get involved on the outside when your team-mates have the ball. We make excuses for these guys, but I'm pretty confident (aka 100% certain) that Crozier and JJ didn't venture backward of centre as juniors. Bachar Houli thought 'DE FENCE' was the thing that went around the boundary as an 18yo. Syd Stack hadn't played on a man since Auskick when Richmond sent him to half back (and if you are being critical, he STILL hasn't but that's another story).

Yesterday, we had the cattle and played well enough to win. For one of the first times all season, I thought our defensive effort was of an 'acceptable' standard to win (and was the first time in 5-weeks we have kept our opposition under 100 points).

Good post mjp.

[Ozza]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

Yes, agree on good post.

Just on Crozier and JJ seeing you mentioned them as 'backs'. I was happy with both again yesterday. Crozier seems to be growing into some leadership down there. I observed him being very instructional and getting us organised down there yesterday - and if he peels off his man to go third (or 5th) up he really commits to it and makes sure he spoils. Earlier in the year (v Freo as an example) - he got a little bit caught between, but he seems to be more decisive now and that comes with experience in playing down there.

On JJ, it just makes a huge difference when he is on the burst creating chances for us.

I hear a lot of JJ criticism around me at the footy (a lot of criticism or general bagging of all our players really...but thats another frustrating story), which I think is really harsh and undervaluing of the impact JJ has with his speed and kicking.

[Danjul]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

I'm not sure this is the case. Well, for me it isn't.

We coulda/shoulda/woulda won yesterday.

I understand the complaining about the Grundy/English match-up...and I do understand the English/Trengove/Naughton 'switcheroo' that might have helped equalise that contest. But we are really guessing...was it worth a try? Maybe. But as I feel like I have said repeatedly, we all complain about Bevo throwing players around into 'unfamiliar' roles, but then whenever it suits us we want to do exactly that. If Naughton is to be a forward, then shouldn't we just play him in the forward line (the way everyone wanted Boyd just left there and wants Schache left up there?). If we throw him back everytime their is a sniff of 'trouble' (and yep, maybe yesterday was more than a 'SNIFF') then how does that help.

I think we have hitched our wagon to English. He was a high draft pick and the club has invested a lot of time/effort in him. What we are seeing right now is the reason some clubs hate taking developing ruckman with early draft picks - they aren't ready, and WONT be ready...but the only way to get them ready is to play them and to do so will cost games.

Personally, I am frustrated by the non-selection of Roberts because he seems to provide us with 'structure' (in the form of an anchor) behind the ball...but it is obvious we don't want to play that way and further obvious thather story).

This is a good summary of where we are at. But there is nothing unfamiliar here....

English will be a good ruckman in the future but he can contribute more on the forward line now. His build is more suited to forward play and his struggles in the ruck are removing some of his talents. When he gets the ball his first tendency is to handball, when he is capable of kicking 60 metres, for example .

Naughton is a talented KPP and can succeed at both ends. It makes sense to play him where the match circumstances determine his maximum contribution.

The real problem here is selection decisions have left the team without sensible ruck options. The lack of foresight means when English gets monstered by stronger and more experienced opponents we have chosen to lose the game. (I suspect 4 but others will disagree)

I don’t blame English. It is a matter of how he is developed. Personally I would like to see him as a match winning forward who might become a match winning ruckman.

[Bornadog]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

Good post mjp.

Ditto.

It's posts by MJP that helps me get through reading WOOF after a loss. Sensible, non emotional (unlike me )

I really thought we took it right up to a premiership contender yesterday, and let ourselves down. Collingwood a more experienced, mature team against a young team (yes a young team when KPP are under developed), yet we were so close to winning. We have to stick with these guys, not lose anymore like we have in the past 3 years.

You want to know why we have gone into development mode since the premiership, then tell me if it would make a difference if we had a few of these guys in the team:

2016 games

Where are they now?

Marcus Adams
Brisbane

Shane Biggs
Retired

Matthew Boyd
Retired

Tom Boyd
Retired

Travis Cloke
Retired

Luke Dahlhaus
Geelong

Joel Hamling
Fremantle

Nathan Hrovat
North Melbourne

Bob Murphy
Retired

Liam Picken
Retired

Jack Redpath
Retired

Jordan Roughead
Collingwood

Clay Smith
Retired

Koby Stevens
Retired

Jake Stringer
Essendon

All for different reasons, but the experience loss is tremendous.

[MrMahatma]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

I actually thought we played well, and am gutted we lost that. Frustrating that we missed shots and the old “honourable” loss vibe is setting in.

Thought Roarke Smith showed a bit. Had a crack. I’ve never been much of a fan but he attached the ball well and tried a few things.

[ratsmac]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

I think the reasons why Bevo won't do the switch-a-roo with Naughton/English/Trengove is because he's looking to the future, he's playing the long game. He has mentioned in his presser a few times about playing players now to build what our long term goal as team will look like. I believe Bevo wants Naughton and English to grind it out and learn off the best opposition to be better players themselves in the long term. If he pulls them out of there positions as soon as the are getting beaten what lessons are there in that.

Yesterday we done enough to win with out too many players thrown around to catch the opposition out, we simply didn't take our chances.

[soupman]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

Naughton is a talented KPP and can succeed at both ends. It makes sense to play him where the match circumstances determine his maximum contribution.

Sure if we are desperate but isn't there also merit in keeping him forward as much as possible. If we see him as our long term key forward, which it appears we do, then we should commit to that and give him as much time as possible up there.

I remember many years ago Rocket talking about that game against Adelaide where Darcy kicked 6 goals in about a half of footy and Morris made his debut. He was talking about how everyone was talking about how the move of Darcy forward was a genius move and swung the game, when in fact he had spent the entire game the week prior up there as well as the entire first half for a return of about 1 goal. Nobody was calling it genius at half time of the Adelaide game.

I think Naughton (and all but the best forwards) is kind of the same, he will have quiet games where it seems like he isn't getting involved enough and should be moved around, but the longer he stays up forward the more opportunities he has to have that second half and learn how to impact the game.

Most importantly, if he is down back everytime we are struggling how is he going to learn to bring the game back onto our terms as a forward? It pretty hard to kick a crucial goal to get us back into the contest when you are lining up at CHB.

I don’t blame English. It is a matter of how he is developed. Personally I would like to see him as a match winning forward who might become a match winning ruckman.

This is plain silly.

I have some doubts on English both short and long term as a ruckman, but he has certainly shown he is capable of becoming something fantastic there, if given the time to develop. As a forward though? What has he shown there that Schache or Naughton hasn't? A couple of marks against Carlton? Schache had some good moments in the ruck against Hawthorn, is he now our developing match winning ruck?

Clearly we see English as our gun ruck as early as possible, so why would we a) delay that development in the ruck when we have shown no intention of finding any stop gap to help him out in the meantime and b) change his focus onto a role that he has shown both minimal form in actually being and that will distract him from learning the position he does excel at and when we already have two very highly rated players that we have invested heavily in developing already.

Sorry but English as a "match winning forward" is not a plan I want to get behind.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

Sure if we are desperate but isn't there also merit in keeping him forward as much as possible. If we see him as our long term key forward, which it appears we do, then we should commit to that and give him as much time as possible up there.

I remember many years ago Rocket talking about that game against Adelaide where Darcy kicked 6 goals in about a half of footy and Morris made his debut. He was talking about how everyone was talking about how the move of Darcy forward was a genius move and swung the game, when in fact he had spent the entire game the week prior up there as well as the entire first half for a return of about 1 goal. Nobody was calling it genius at half time of the Adelaide game.

I think Naughton (and all but the best forwards) is kind of the same, he will have quiet games where it seems like he isn't getting involved enough and should be moved around, but the longer he stays up forward the more opportunities he has to have that second half and learn how to impact the game.

Most importantly, if he is down back everytime we are struggling how is he going to learn to bring the game back onto our terms as a forward? It pretty hard to kick a crucial goal to get us back into the contest when you are lining up at CHB.



This is plain silly.

I have some doubts on English both short and long term as a ruckman, but he has certainly shown he is capable of becoming something fantastic there, if given the time to develop. As a forward though? What has he shown there that Schache or Naughton hasn't? A couple of marks against Carlton? Schache had some good moments in the ruck against Hawthorn, is he now our developing match winning ruck?

Clearly we see English as our gun ruck as early as possible, so why would we a) delay that development in the ruck when we have shown no intention of finding any stop gap to help him out in the meantime and b) change his focus onto a role that he has shown both minimal form in actually being and that will distract him from learning the position he does excel at and when we already have two very highly rated players that we have invested heavily in developing already.

Sorry but English as a "match winning forward" is not a plan I want to get behind.

I don't know, English took some good grabs against Carlton. I think he is as good as Shack, despite Shack being up in Brisbane for a while. If the jury is still out on English as a ruckman, then where else do you want him?
If it works, I will get behind him! Just want us to kick straight.

[mjp]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

So to summarise Naughton has spent his junior career as a defender - so we should move him back there.
English has spent his junior career as a ruckman - so we should move him to the forward line?

I know it is more complicated than that, but does anyone/everyone understand the continual inconsistency with this stuff? We need to play guys in their best spot - or move them somewhere else - depending on who it is and the state of the game...

It is just craziness.

[Bornadog]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

So to summarise Naughton has spent his junior career as a defender - so we should move him back there.
English has spent his junior career as a ruckman - so we should move him to the forward line?

I know it is more complicated than that, but does anyone/everyone understand the continual inconsistency with this stuff? We need to play guys in their best spot - or move them somewhere else - depending on who it is and the state of the game...

It is just craziness.

Naughton should stay forward, and English in the ruck, however, would love to see Trengove as the second ruck to help out, BUT, where does he play when he is not in the ruck. At the moment, Trengove is playing good football as the FB, the craft he excelled in at Port - so that doesn't work and we should leave him there. Has had very little goals kicked against him this season.

[Danjul]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

I have some doubts on English both short and long term as a ruckman, but he has certainly shown he is capable of becoming something fantastic there, if given the time to develop. As a forward though? What has he shown there that Schache or Naughton hasn't? A couple of marks against Carlton? Schache had some good moments in the ruck against Hawthorn, is he now our developing match winning ruck?

Clearly we see English as our gun ruck as early as possible, so why would we a) delay that development in the ruck when we have shown no intention of finding any stop gap to help him out in the meantime and b) change his focus onto a role that he has shown both minimal form in actually being and that will distract him from learning the position he does excel at and when we already have two very highly rated players that we have invested heavily in developing already.

Sorry but English as a "match winning forward" is not a plan I want to get behind.

English has been a terrible choice as the Number one ruckman. That decision was made before the season started and with no justification. He was struggling in the ruck against strong bodies in the vfl last year.

He has been comprehensively beaten in most games, contributing to some losses. He has broken even in a few. But in None has he taken pressure off the midfielders. He should not be shouldering this responsibility so early in his career. Who didn’t expect Grundy to beat him so badly, we all saw what he did earlier in the year. It is unbelievable that we went into Sunday’s game without a plan B.

It is not English’s fault, he could have had a very successful season as a key forward who helps out for 5 minutes in the ruck each quarter.

His best contributions against North Melbourne were 2 good goals in 10 minutes (looked like a match winner the way he combined with the Bont). Against Carlton he also kicked a couple of goals in a short period of time when others were not getting the score on the board. He is good down low and a nice kick. I see no down side with him at CHF.

[Danjul]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

So to summarise Naughton has spent his junior career as a defender - so we should move him back there.
English has spent his junior career as a ruckman - so we should move him to the forward line?

I know it is more complicated than that, but does anyone/everyone understand the continual inconsistency with this stuff? We need to play guys in their best spot - or move them somewhere else - depending on who it is and the state of the game...

It is just craziness.

English has proven that at this stage of his career his best spot is CHF.

But he will not be played there. So against Melbourne, for example, Gawn will do what?

[Ozza]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

On Naughton, Bevo has stated that it is much harder to find players with the characteristics of a tall contested marking forward that it is to find a lockdown defender - so while he has Naughton exhibiting these traits, he is going to play him as a forward. So we need to get used to it - and I'm onboard with this logic. I don't care if he makes it easier for Schache to kick goals, or vice versa - as long as someone is doing it each week. I just want them to spend a good stint of games working together to see if they can get it to work well.

For English, this argument being trotted out about him not being a ruckman, I just don't buy it at all. He looks every bit the future gun ruckman we are looking for. Most 21 year old ruckman are playing state league, this kid is good enough to compete well with all bar the absolute top level rucks. Its really only been Grundy and Witts that have handled him this year. English has acquitted himself well in all other games, and even yesterday in getting belted up by the best in the game - he had 9 score involvements and has had more score involvements than his opponent in all bar two games this season, which is an indication of the quality in his game.