WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

[Bornadog]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

On Naughton, Bevo has stated that it is much harder to find players with the characteristics of a tall contested marking forward that it is to find a lockdown defender - so while he has Naughton exhibiting these traits, he is going to play him as a forward. So we need to get used to it - and I'm onboard with this logic. I don't care if he makes it easier for Schache to kick goals, or vice versa - as long as someone is doing it each week. I just want them to spend a good stint of games working together to see if they can get it to work well.

For English, this argument being trotted out about him not being a ruckman, I just don't buy it at all. He looks every bit the future gun ruckman we are looking for. Most 21 year old ruckman are playing state league, this kid is good enough to compete well with all bar the absolute top level rucks. Its really only been Grundy and Witts that have handled him this year. English has acquitted himself well in all other games, and even yesterday in getting belted up by the best in the game - he had 9 score involvements and has had more score involvements than his opponent in all bar two games this season, which is an indication of the quality in his game.

Spot on Ozza.

We need to be patient with these kids. I said it before, how exciting is our future with these talls in our team. I don't ever remember a Bulldog team with this many tall young potential players with Naughton, Schache, English and Young in the wings.

Let's leave them in their spots, let them learn and go from there.

[Danjul]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

On Naughton, Bevo has stated that it is much harder to find players with the characteristics of a tall contested marking forward that it is to find a lockdown defender - so while he has Naughton exhibiting these traits, he is going to play him as a forward. So we need to get used to it - and I'm onboard with this logic. I don't care if he makes it easier for Schache to kick goals, or vice versa - as long as someone is doing it each week. I just want them to spend a good stint of games working together to see if they can get it to work well.

For English, this argument being trotted out about him not being a ruckman, I just don't buy it at all. He looks every bit the future gun ruckman we are looking for. Most 21 year old ruckman are playing state league, this kid is good enough to compete well with all bar the absolute top level rucks. Its really only been Grundy and Witts that have handled him this year. English has acquitted himself well in all other games, and even yesterday in getting belted up by the best in the game - he had 9 score involvements and has had more score involvements than his opponent in all bar two games this season, which is an indication of the quality in his game.

English is tall for his age. But in an AFL club that is not enough. He has more development ahead of him before he is ready for the most important role on the field. He is improving steadily and will continue to do so.

Goldstein also turned in a match winning performance against him , something like 30 possessions and 50 hitouts. Cordy did better in the ruck that day.

English’s score involvement have not come from ruck work, mainly when he has displayed forward craft.

[Ozza]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

English has proven that at this stage of his career his best spot is CHF.

But he will not be played there. So against Melbourne, for example, Gawn will do what?

Proven when exactly? Has barely played there - and 2 of his career 5 goals were kicked when playing in the ruck last week.

[Sedat]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

For English, this argument being trotted out about him not being a ruckman, I just don't buy it at all. He looks every bit the future gun ruckman we are looking for. Most 21 year old ruckman are playing state league, this kid is good enough to compete well with all bar the absolute top level rucks. Its really only been Grundy and Witts that have handled him this year. English has acquitted himself well in all other games, and even yesterday in getting belted up by the best in the game - he had 9 score involvements and has had more score involvements than his opponent in all bar two games this season, which is an indication of the quality in his game.

So it's 4 games (Grundy x2, Witts and v North/Goldy) where the opposition rucks have monstered English at the stoppages in a close loss. So basically the difference between 5-8 and 9-4. I don't blame English at all - he just doesn't have the ruck craft at stoppages to assist in giving us quality clearances and better looks inside F50. He's a fantastic follower, hence why he gets involved in scoring chains, but at the source he is getting belted too often and very much to his and the team's detriment. It's a massive ask to punish him for 80% ruck time every week, and frankly it is stubbornness and arrogance by Bevo to continue subjecting him to it. Gawn and Grundy weren't rucking big minutes at the same stage of their careers - the only young ruck who did was Josh Fraser, who was cooked by 25.

Hell of a lesson for player and club to learn.

[Bullies]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

English is tall for his age. But in an AFL club that is not enough. He has more development ahead of him before he is ready for the most important role on the field. He is improving steadily and will continue to do so.

Goldstein also turned in a match winning performance against him , something like 30 possessions and 50 hitouts. Cordy did better in the ruck that day.

English’s score involvement have not come from ruck work, mainly when he has displayed forward craft.

Listening to Rob Harvey from Collingwood he said English was well ahead of where Grundy was at the same stage. We need to remember this isn't going to happen overnight.

[SonofScray]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

So it's 4 games (Grundy x2, Witts and v North/Goldy) where the opposition rucks have monstered English at the stoppages in a close loss. So basically the difference between 5-8 and 9-4. I don't blame English at all - he just doesn't have the ruck craft at stoppages to assist in giving us quality clearances and better looks inside F50. He's a fantastic follower, hence why he gets involved in scoring chains, but at the source he is getting belted too often and very much to his and the team's detriment. It's a massive ask to punish him for 80% ruck time every week, and frankly it is stubbornness and arrogance by Bevo to continue subjecting him to it. Gawn and Grundy weren't rucking big minutes at the same stage of their careers - the only young ruck who did was Josh Fraser, who was cooked by 25.

Hell of a lesson for player and club to learn.

That's a good take, I hadn't thought too deeply about it because I am relatively happy with the overall value English is providing us. He is getting chucked to the wolves in a way we never dared with someone like Luke Darcy. The traditional thing would be to squeeze some goals out of him up front and get him going for stints in the ruck. If we could set up that way, I think he and the team would be better served.

[FrediKanoute]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

English has proven that at this stage of his career his best spot is CHF.

But he will not be played there. So against Melbourne, for example, Gawn will do what?

I don't think you could say that English has proven anything, and certainly he hasn't proven to be a good CHF. He is tracking fine as a developing ruckman and has gotten better as the year has progressed.

[Danjul]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

Listening to Rob Harvey from Collingwood he said English was well ahead of where Grundy was at the same stage. We need to remember this isn't going to happen overnight.

Agree 100%.

My comments are only focused on our lacking of winning now. Trying to win in three years is getting too much attention.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

So it's 4 games (Grundy x2, Witts and v North/Goldy) where the opposition rucks have monstered English at the stoppages in a close loss. So basically the difference between 5-8 and 9-4. I don't blame English at all - he just doesn't have the ruck craft at stoppages to assist in giving us quality clearances and better looks inside F50. He's a fantastic follower, hence why he gets involved in scoring chains, but at the source he is getting belted too often and very much to his and the team's detriment. It's a massive ask to punish him for 80% ruck time every week, and frankly it is stubbornness and arrogance by Bevo to continue subjecting him to it. Gawn and Grundy weren't rucking big minutes at the same stage of their careers - the only young ruck who did was Josh Fraser, who was cooked by 25.

Hell of a lesson for player and club to learn.

Going to be really, really ticked off if he gets injured.

[jeemak]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

Going to be really, really ticked off if he gets injured.

It's footy, players get injured, but I wonder what evidence there is to suggest what the danger is in playing ruck as an underdeveloped player relative to some opponents actually is.

Nic Nat has had a shit of a time post maturing, and Kreuzer seems to have always had a shit of a time injury wise. I look at forwards and there's the likes of McCartin and Patton who seem to be in the firing line for different reasons. Going back Fraser as Sedat posted had issues with his body at a young to medium age for a ruck, Luke Darcy copped a knee later in his career - but the game has changed a lot for forwards and rucks in the last ten years.

I think you could make a case that young forwards are sitting ducks for bash and crash wear and tear or injuries given the amount of ground they have to cover and the sheer volume of physical contact they face in lieu of zone defending and multiple aerial challenges they face contest to contest.

Not sure whether English is more exposed playing ruck than he might be elsewhere. It's an interesting discussion and I'd like to understand what type of injuries rucks are more susceptible to these days.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

It's footy, players get injured, but I wonder what evidence there is to suggest what the danger is in playing ruck as an underdeveloped player relative to some opponents actually is.

Nic Nat has had a shit of a time post maturing, and Kreuzer seems to have always had a shit of a time injury wise. I look at forwards and there's the likes of McCartin and Patton who seem to be in the firing line for different reasons. Going back Fraser as Sedat posted had issues with his body at a young to medium age for a ruck, Luke Darcy copped a knee later in his career - but the game has changed a lot for forwards and rucks in the last ten years.

I think you could make a case that young forwards are sitting ducks for bash and crash wear and tear or injuries given the amount of ground they have to cover and the sheer volume of physical contact they face in lieu of zone defending and multiple aerial challenges they face contest to contest.

Not sure whether English is more exposed playing ruck than he might be elsewhere. It's an interesting discussion and I'd like to understand what type of injuries rucks are more susceptible to these days.

Call me an expert. I can use Google.
Posterior Cruciate Ligament
Posterior cruciate ligament (PCL) injuries have earned the colloquial label “ruckman’s curse” due to their prevalence in AFL ruckmen. Opposing ruckmen jump to contest the ball when it is bounced up or thrown in at a stoppage in play.57 The 2 opposing ruckmen will usually run at each other while the ball is in flight, potentially colliding with a flexed knee. The most widely reported mechanism of PCL injury is a fall on the flexed knee with the foot in plantar flexion or direct force blow to the anterior tibia63; however, a ruckman can also collide with a flexed knee while “rucking.”

Dunno I am pretty sure a new player is more at risk of injury than a mature player. But I am no sports scientist.
Anyway if Tim is happy to grind away that's fine with me. Just hope he lasts his career. He looks ok up forward. Not out of his element at all.

[jeemak]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

Watching the replay - Q1 Observations

This is almost where the game was lost. We were running at SFA disposal efficiency, a dubious yet unnecessary free kick to Cox and some really poor communication and terrible disposal in the back half in the 3-10 minute mark and we were three goals down just like that. You can't do that against quality like the Pies.

However, we stuck to our knitting and the game plan and positional tactics seemed to bear fruit once we tidied up our disposal - notwithstanding some attention to detail issues from Lloyd, Daniel and English. A good finish from Lippa was needed, the pressure overall was excellent.

I don't know how anyone can say Jacko isn't damaging by foot. Sure he doesn't take the shot as often as he should, but he slices the ground up with his kicking regularly, Richards was really damaging in the same area.

Ben Reid's first goal was scored against Trengove, Roark Smith had a crack in the air in a really good contest running back that saved a gettable shot on goal. The head clash with Smith and Dunkley should have been avoided, if it was there's a fair chance Lippa wouldn't have missed his target and we'd not have had to come back from as far down to even things up at quarter time.

Cracking game of footy thus far.

[jeemak]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

Call me an expert. I can use Google.
Posterior Cruciate Ligament
Posterior cruciate ligament (PCL) injuries have earned the colloquial label “ruckman’s curse” due to their prevalence in AFL ruckmen. Opposing ruckmen jump to contest the ball when it is bounced up or thrown in at a stoppage in play.57 The 2 opposing ruckmen will usually run at each other while the ball is in flight, potentially colliding with a flexed knee. The most widely reported mechanism of PCL injury is a fall on the flexed knee with the foot in plantar flexion or direct force blow to the anterior tibia63; however, a ruckman can also collide with a flexed knee while “rucking.”

Dunno I am pretty sure a new player is more at risk of injury than a mature player. But I am no sports scientist.
Anyway if Tim is happy to grind away that's fine with me. Just hope he lasts his career. He looks ok up forward. Not out of his element at all.

You got some Dolmio Grin to back this up? Just interested to know given the AFEL introduced rules to negate these injuries a while back. Cheers.

[Bornadog]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

The head clash with Smith and Dunkley should have been avoided

I wonder if that head clash effected Smith as he hardly touched the ball for the rest of the day.

[Ozza]

Re: WB Game Day V Collingwood R14 2019

Grundy played 15 games in the ruck as a 20 year old, 19 games as a 21 year old, 21, 20 & 26 the 3 seasons after that, and every game this season.

All scenarios are different, and when English had an injury this year - we were conservative with him and gave him the additional week.