Brisbane were ready for us.

[Danjul]

Re: Brisbane were ready for us.

Why? Does it matter who kicks goals, as long as they are kicked?

Some absolute champion midfielders have not been goal kickers. Macrae in particular is not going to magically become one. We all wish he would pull the trigger more when in position to have a shot, but it doesn't make or break him as a player.

If he's getting the ball +30 times and setting up other for goals that's just fine with me. Where his inside 50s are going may be a different discussion.

They are not being kicked. That’s why we lose too often. .( Even when the team has 70 more possessions.)

[mjp]

Re: Brisbane were ready for us.

...but I actually felt our decision making was a bigger problem than skill execution against Brisbane. Your Hunter example a case in point.

What came first, the decision or the skill?

This is an interesting one. Because a players decisions are IMPACTED by his skill.

For example:

- Right call for Hunter was 'kick the goal'.
- He is an experienced player - His initial decision = 'Kick the Goal'.
- BUT. He missed at training during the week. Or missed vs Port Adelaide in 2017. Or in the u12s.
- SO. 'Do the team thing'. Quick. Quick.
- Messed up.

What is to blame? The decision? Or the skill failing (real or imagined) that led to the decision?

It is why we - as supporters - see open players but the player with the ball will not kick it to them. They are haunted by their own perceptions (and the coaches instructions!) as to what they are/aren't capable of/allowed to do. Hit the 25m 45 in the d50? Caleb Daniel says 'Yes I can'. Same opportunity is there for Zaine Cordy (aka Ayce for those listening to the ABC broadcast team last weekend) and he tends to bomb it long to the junction. Safer. Can't be a clanger if you go long to a contest.

Decision error? Skill error?

Other players see the open target but - rather than try and hit it, simply hold the ball an extra 2-seconds...then the opening is gone. Guess what? That means they don't have to try and hit it now, so they wave their arms about and pretend they are looking for a lead before blasting away...

Decision error? Skill error? Chicken? Egg?

[Danjul]

Re: Brisbane were ready for us.

No team in the league averages 1 mark per 3 inside 50s. We are equal with Collingwood for the most marks inside 50, although they do it from fewer inside 50s.

You know what though? Inside 50 and marks inside 50 numbers have little correlation to the current ladder.

I do agree that often our marks inside 50 are not in dangerous positions. It's not a simple solution though - the opposition is likely to better guard the dangerous areas leaving us with a choice to kick long to the hot spot with a low likelihood of a mark or try to find an open player in a lower percentage goal kicking position.

Ball movement is not as simple as just kick 40 metres forward all the time. We would be slaughtered if we did that. It's up to the players to assess the situation and take the best course of action which may be breaking the play up with handball, kicking sideways or backwards to shift the defence and open something up, or kicking long if it's on. I guess striking the right balance is the key.

Exactly. And we don’t have it.

All year I have seen players get the ball and immediately look sideways for a handball. From marks and free kicks too.

The over use of handball has been behind the shocking first quarters against St Kilda and Brisbane.

Was it 70 more than Brisbane by the end?

I would like to see the team focus more on the kicking aspect of the game.

[Danjul]

Re: Brisbane were ready for us.

Whether a mark results from an inside 50 is of little relevance, I want us to score from entries, not just catch the thing.

This year, we average 2.33 Inside 50s per scoring shot. Brisbane averages 2.13. We average one mark inside 50 out of every 4.35 entries. Brisbane averages One mark every 5.11 entries.

Both of the top two teams in the competition are running a 1 mark to 4 inside 50s ratio. Your 1 in 3 rationale is simplistic in the extreme and not backed up by evidence.

It was not simplistic, it was made up to catch attention because I don’t have full access to the evidence. Thanks for fact checking.

But.....

All I was going on was the fact that when Geelong smashed us earlier in the year they had 17 marks from 50 entries (1 in 3) and 21 goals . Suggests much cleaner play, but they had only about 4 more scoring shots.

We had 13 (which is 1 in 4) for only 13 goals.

We also had more 40 more possessions but 50 more handballs.

If you look at the Brisbane game - almost an exact repeat.

They were better than 1 in 3 and we were worse than 1 in 4. We had 70 more possessions but 70 more handballs. They won but only with 3 more scoring shots.

We are not going to fix our problems by looking at league stats, we must look at our own.

Look at the Collingwood game. We had 12 marks from 60 entries (only 1 in 5). We had 50 more disposals (455 was the most in any game since the premiership year) but mainly handball. And the Pies still won, even with less scoring shots.

The marks per entry indicate a lot more than someone caught the ball.

Oh well, at least the Dogs are consistent.

[Missing Dog]

Re: Brisbane were ready for us.

I would like to see the team focus more on the kicking aspect of the game.

Spot on, if we could add a greater accuracy count to the kicks, both field and goal.
Nothing wrong with handball, but overdoing it usually leads to yet another turnover.
Upping our boot skills would make us so much more adaptive to different situations.

[Mantis]

Re: Brisbane were ready for us.

Spot on, if we could add a greater accuracy count to the kicks, both field and goal.
Nothing wrong with handball, but overdoing it usually leads to yet another turnover.
Upping our boot skills would make us so much more adaptive to different situations.

Taking a simplistic view, you can either kick or you can’t... and we have more than our fair share of players who can’t kick.. well not at an above average or higher level.

[Danjul]

Re: Brisbane were ready for us.

Taking a simplistic view, you can either kick or you can’t... and we have more than our fair share of players who can’t kick.. well not at an above average or higher level.

I know a surgeon who could not put people back together when he was 20. With a lot of effort he is now very good at it.

How is it that professional footballers are not expected to learn skills? They either can or can’t, and that’s how they expect to stay.

[GVGjr]

Re: Brisbane were ready for us.

Why? Does it matter who kicks goals, as long as they are kicked?

Some absolute champion midfielders have not been goal kickers. Macrae in particular is not going to magically become one. We all wish he would pull the trigger more when in position to have a shot, but it doesn't make or break him as a player.

If he's getting the ball +30 times and setting up other for goals that's just fine with me. Where his inside 50s are going may be a different discussion.

If we could turn Macrae into a midfielder who kicked 15 to 20 goals per season I genuinely believe it would enhance his Brownlow medal chances. Unfortunately it's unlikely that he will take on that sort of goal scoring involvement

He's been playing senior footy since 2013 and has kicked just 32 goals and 28 points in 137 games.

[Mantis]

Re: Brisbane were ready for us.

I know a surgeon who could not put people back together when he was 20. With a lot of effort he is now very good at it.

How is it that professional footballers are not expected to learn skills? They either can or can’t, and that’s how they expect to stay.

Did said surgeon started cutting into people when he was 5 or 6?

Much easier to be taught correctly from the start, than try to rectify ingrained issues some 12-15 years later.

[Danjul]

Re: Brisbane were ready for us.

Did said surgeon started cutting into people when he was 5 or 6?

Much easier to be taught correctly from the start, than try to rectify ingrained issues some 12-15 years later.

True, but these guys have natural talent to work with. So it should only take about 200 hours to get a 100% improvement.

[AshMac]

Re: Brisbane were ready for us.

If we could turn Macrae into a midfielder who kicked 15 to 20 goals per season I genuinely believe it would enhance his Brownlow medal chances. Unfortunately it's unlikely that he will take on that sort of goal scoring involvement

He's been playing senior footy since 2013 and has kicked just 32 goals and 28 points in 137 games.

I would love to see this. Of all our players, he is the one that has the kicking style and opportunity to have more shots

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Brisbane were ready for us.

For years people railed on the kicking skills of Matty Boyd. Myself included, the panic bomb from congestion, he was the master.
It turns out he was not a bad kick from full back. I believe JMac can achieve any realistic goal. For me, that would be to kick 10-15 goals more per season.

[Bornadog]

Re: Brisbane were ready for us.

If we could turn Macrae into a midfielder who kicked 15 to 20 goals per season I genuinely believe it would enhance his Brownlow medal chances. Unfortunately it's unlikely that he will take on that sort of goal scoring involvement

He's been playing senior footy since 2013 and has kicked just 32 goals and 28 points in 137 games.

Not all mids kick goals. Look at Cripps, has kicked 46 in 98 games whereas, Bont over 100 in 123 games.

[GVGjr]

Re: Brisbane were ready for us.

Not all mids kick goals. Look at Cripps, has kicked 46 in 98 games whereas, Bont over 100 in 123 games.

I thought that was sort of obvious but if Macrae stepped it up a bit rather than looking to pass it off at every opportunity it would hold hom in a higher regard

[azabob]

Re: Brisbane were ready for us.

I thought that was sort of obvious but if Macrae stepped it up a bit rather than looking to pass it off at every opportunity it would hold hom in a higher regard

Exactly- at minimum Macrae would get 1 shot at goal a game but chooses to pass it off to a player in a worse spot who is under more pressure.

For our midfield to be the best in the comp (which we are not even though some think we are) they need to take more responsibility in kicking goals and hitting targets inside forward 50.

I am getting sick of seeing high disposals for little return on the scoreboard and most importantly winning games of football.