Rating our list 2020

[soupman]

Re: Rating our list 2020

Pretty much disagree with all of this.

Sweet was OK but was well beaten by Goldstein, did about as well as I would expect English to do but without the upside.

I can't see English being anything more than a passable forward. What champion key forwards in the history of the game have similar physical attributed to English? I can't think of any. On the other hand, I and most pundits believe he has every chance of becoming one of the top ruckmen in the next few years. Unfortunately he may miss out on a year of development this year which will require us to have even more patience going forward.

I'm not completely against Naughton going back, but he has the potential to be the best key forward in the game so I would be very hesitant to make that move on a permanent basis. Keath is an excellent intercept player and if we don't have a dour stopper that's up to standard on our list then we should recruit one, they aren't the hardest players to find.

I agree with all of this.

English can and should be a very good ruck, even his timidness should not be an issue in a few years. By biggest query on him is that he is not a natural hitout guy, so I doubt he ever truly becomes an above average tap out ruck, but his around the ground work should more than make up for that.

Naughton stays forward, as said above he could be the best in the game. If we need a lock down defender then the past has proven that they don't need to be amazing. They can be found with late draft picks and rookie spots, dominant key forwards cannot.

[Danjul]

Re: Rating our list 2020

Pretty much disagree with all of this.

Sweet was OK but was well beaten by Goldstein, did about as well as I would expect English to do but without the upside.

I can't see English being anything more than a passable forward. What champion key forwards in the history of the game have similar physical attributed to English? I can't think of any. On the other hand, I and most pundits believe he has every chance of becoming one of the top ruckmen in the next few years. Unfortunately he may miss out on a year of development this year which will require us to have even more patience going forward.

I'm not completely against Naughton going back, but he has the potential to be the best key forward in the game so I would be very hesitant to make that move on a permanent basis. Keath is an excellent intercept player and if we don't have a dour stopper that's up to standard on our list then we should recruit one, they aren't the hardest players to find.

Sweet was better than OK and was not well beaten by Goldstein.

last year Goldstein simply tore the Dogs apart. Something like 30 possessions and nearly 20 hitouts to advantage. Clearly best on ground. I was there and it was a masterful display.

Against Sweet (in his first game) Goldstein was ordinary with those statistics halved. He prevented Goldstein from giving North momentum.

In my eyes Sweet would not make things worse and would release a lot of potential in the team.

[Bornadog]

Re: Rating our list 2020

Sweet was better than OK and was not well beaten by Goldstein.

last year Goldstein simply tore the Dogs apart. Something like 30 possessions and nearly 20 hitouts to advantage. Clearly best on ground. I was there and it was a masterful display.

Against Sweet (in his first game) Goldstein was ordinary with those statistics halved. He prevented Goldstein from giving North momentum.

In my eyes Sweet would not make things worse and would release a lot of potential in the team.

You can't compare a preseason practice match to the proper season. Currently Sweet has nil games under his belt and is completely unknown. He is potential, and that is all.

[Danjul]

Re: Rating our list 2020

I agree with all of this.

English can and should be a very good ruck, even his timidness should not be an issue in a few years. By biggest query on him is that he is not a natural hitout guy, so I doubt he ever truly becomes an above average tap out ruck, but his around the ground work should more than make up for that.

Naughton stays forward, as said above he could be the best in the game. If we need a lock down defender then the past has proven that they don't need to be amazing. They can be found with late draft picks and rookie spots, dominant key forwards cannot.

so I doubt he ever truly becomes an above average tap out ruck,

So he will spend a lot more games being beaten if he is first ruck. (Adds pressure to our own midfielders).


but his around the ground work should more than make up for that.

So it is his forward skills that makes him a champion (reads the play, good mark over his head, long straight kick).

He has proven that he is dangerous when 45 metres from goal.


should not be an issue in a few years.

We need to generate the best team results with the talent we have now.

[Danjul]

Re: Rating our list 2020

You can't compare a preseason practice match to the proper season. Currently Sweet has nil games under his belt and is completely unknown. He is potential, and that is all.

Based on the ‘non practice match ‘ all I saw was dysfunctional disaster ‘.

Without change, there’s no potential.

And I have noticed that all attempts at having a backup ruckman (Cordy, the Bont, Schache, Dunkley, Bruce, Naughton ....) have been failures taking one of our good players out of the game for a while.

Honourable mention to Cordy for his efforts against north.

[Bornadog]

Re: Rating our list 2020

Comparison of Grundy to English at 22 years of age.

Player Statistics Comparison

Brodie Grundy Name Timothy English Collingwood Magpies Team Western Bulldogs Ruck Position Ruck 133 Career Games 30 Sturt Origin South Fremantle April 15, 1994 Date of Birth August 10, 1997 Turned 22 in 2016 Age Turned 22 in 2019 203cm Height 205cm 100kg Weight 93kg 2012 National Draft Last Drafted In 2016 National Draft Round 1, Pick #18 Last Draft Position Round 1, Pick #19 Collingwood Magpies Last Drafted By Western Bulldogs 2016 Stats for Season 2019 21 Games 20 9.1 Kicks 6.8 9.4 Handballs 6.5 18.4 Disposals 13.2 3.9 Marks 4.0 0.5 Goals 0.4 0.4 Behinds 0.5 4.4 Tackles 3.4 26.1 Hitouts 19.1 2.0 Inside 50s 2.2 0.2 Goal Assists 0.1 1.9 Frees For 1.1 1.9 Frees Against 1.2 9.8 Contested Possessions 5.9 9.2 Uncontested Possessions 7.7 11.6 Effective Disposals 10.1 63% Disposal Efficiency % 76.5% 4.0 Clangers 2.3 0.7 Contested Marks 1.1 0.5 Marks Inside 50 0.7 3.9 Clearances 2.1 0.9 Rebound 50s 0.6 2.3 One Percenters 5.0 0.3 Bounces 0.1 84.6 Time On Ground % 83.8 1.0 Centre Clearances 1.1 2.9 Stoppage Clearances 1.1 5.8 Score Involvements 5.2 220.0 Metres Gained 161.6 3.2 Turnovers 2.0 1.7 Intercepts 2.5 0.3 Tackles Inside 50 0.3 100.9 AFL Fantasy Score 78.5 95.7 Supercoach Score 82.7

[Bornadog]

Re: Rating our list 2020

More than holds his own against Goldstein at age 22

Player Statistics Comparison

Todd Goldstein Name Timothy English North Melbourne Kangaroos Team Western Bulldogs Ruck Position Ruck 235 Career Games 30 Oakleigh Origin South Fremantle July 1, 1988 Date of Birth August 10, 1997 Turned 22 in 2010 Age Turned 22 in 2019 201cm Height 205cm 103kg Weight 93kg 2006 National Draft Last Drafted In 2016 National Draft Round 3, Pick #37 Last Draft Position Round 1, Pick #19 North Melbourne Kangaroos Last Drafted By Western Bulldogs 2010 Stats for Season 2019 21 Games 20 5.9 Kicks 6.8 5.8 Handballs 6.5 11.6 Disposals 13.2 4.3 Marks 4.0 0.5 Goals 0.4 0.6 Behinds 0.5 3.3 Tackles 3.4 17.5 Hitouts 19.1 1.7 Inside 50s 2.2 0.2 Goal Assists 0.1 1.2 Frees For 1.1 0.9 Frees Against 1.2 5.8 Contested Possessions 5.9 5.6 Uncontested Possessions 7.7 7.9 Effective Disposals 10.1 68.1% Disposal Efficiency % 76.5% 1.9 Clangers 2.3 1.0 Contested Marks 1.1 0.8 Marks Inside 50 0.7 1.7 Clearances 2.1 0.6 Rebound 50s 0.6 2.0 One Percenters 5.0 0.1 Bounces 0.1 81.7 Time On Ground % 83.8 Centre Clearances 1.1 Stoppage Clearances 1.1 Score Involvements 5.2 Metres Gained 161.6 Turnovers 2.0 Intercepts 2.5 Tackles Inside 50 0.3 74.9 AFL Fantasy Score 78.5 65.8 Supercoach Score 82.7

[Bornadog]

Re: Rating our list 2020

Comparison to Max Gawn at 22

Player Statistics Comparison

Max Gawn Name Timothy English Melbourne Demons Team Western Bulldogs Ruck Position Ruck 121 Career Games 30 Sandringham Dragons Origin South Fremantle December 30, 1991 Date of Birth August 10, 1997 Turned 22 in 2013 Age Turned 22 in 2019 208cm Height 205cm 109kg Weight 93kg 2009 National Draft Last Drafted In 2016 National Draft Round 3, Pick #34 Last Draft Position Round 1, Pick #19 Melbourne Demons Last Drafted By Western Bulldogs 2013 Stats for Season 2019 13 Games 20 3.7 Kicks 6.8 5.2 Handballs 6.5 8.9 Disposals 13.2 2.9 Marks 4.0 0.5 Goals 0.4 0.1 Behinds 0.5 2.5 Tackles 3.4 18.6 Hitouts 19.1 0.7 Inside 50s 2.2 0.1 Goal Assists 0.1 1.4 Frees For 1.1 0.6 Frees Against 1.2 5.2 Contested Possessions 5.9 3.6 Uncontested Possessions 7.7 6.8 Effective Disposals 10.1 76.4% Disposal Efficiency % 76.5% 1.2 Clangers 2.3 1.1 Contested Marks 1.1 0.5 Marks Inside 50 0.7 1.4 Clearances 2.1 0.3 Rebound 50s 0.6 1.6 One Percenters 5.0 0 Bounces 0.1 77.4 Time On Ground % 83.8 Centre Clearances 1.1 Stoppage Clearances 1.1 Score Involvements 5.2 Metres Gained 161.6 Turnovers 2.0 Intercepts 2.5 Tackles Inside 50 0.3 61.7 AFL Fantasy Score 78.5 67.2 Supercoach Score 82.7

[comrade]

Re: Rating our list 2020

Comparison of Grundy to English at 22 years of age.

Player Statistics Comparison

Brodie Grundy Name Timothy English Collingwood Magpies Team Western Bulldogs Ruck Position Ruck 133 Career Games 30 Sturt Origin South Fremantle April 15, 1994 Date of Birth August 10, 1997 Turned 22 in 2016 Age Turned 22 in 2019 203cm Height 205cm 100kg Weight 93kg 2012 National Draft Last Drafted In 2016 National Draft Round 1, Pick #18 Last Draft Position Round 1, Pick #19 Collingwood Magpies Last Drafted By Western Bulldogs 2016 Stats for Season 2019 21 Games 20 9.1 Kicks 6.8 9.4 Handballs 6.5 18.4 Disposals 13.2 3.9 Marks 4.0 0.5 Goals 0.4 0.4 Behinds 0.5 4.4 Tackles 3.4 26.1 Hitouts 19.1 2.0 Inside 50s 2.2 0.2 Goal Assists 0.1 1.9 Frees For 1.1 1.9 Frees Against 1.2 9.8 Contested Possessions 5.9 9.2 Uncontested Possessions 7.7 11.6 Effective Disposals 10.1 63% Disposal Efficiency % 76.5% 4.0 Clangers 2.3 0.7 Contested Marks 1.1 0.5 Marks Inside 50 0.7 3.9 Clearances 2.1 0.9 Rebound 50s 0.6 2.3 One Percenters 5.0 0.3 Bounces 0.1 84.6 Time On Ground % 83.8 1.0 Centre Clearances 1.1 2.9 Stoppage Clearances 1.1 5.8 Score Involvements 5.2 220.0 Metres Gained 161.6 3.2 Turnovers 2.0 1.7 Intercepts 2.5 0.3 Tackles Inside 50 0.3 100.9 AFL Fantasy Score 78.5 95.7 Supercoach Score 82.7

Grundy well ahead.

[Danjul]

Re: Rating our list 2020

Career figures are not relevant to the discussion.

Last year English had 11 disposals and 7 hitouts, Goldstein had 28 disposals and 57 hitouts . This is what is happening in real time. It is a massive difference. It costs games.

I like English and feel he was a great draft choice and has great talent. But these tables prove that ,at the moment, it is as a forward and second ruck.

He has been 10 kg too light as a ruckman, and that’s why Grundy and Goldstein have had a history of ‘monstering’ him. It was predictable, but because people can see upside in 3 or 4 years we have to let it cost us games in the present.

Grundy was close to best on ground in 2 games the Dogs could have won last season and definitely best on ground this year. The debacle in round one had a number of clearly avoidable features, and ruck was one of them.

[GVGjr]

Re: Rating our list 2020

Career figures are not relevant to the discussion.

Last year English had 11 disposals and 7 hitouts, Goldstein had 28 disposals and 57 hitouts . This is what is happening in real time. It is a massive difference. It costs games.

I like English and feel he was a great draft choice and has great talent. But these tables prove that ,at the moment, it is as a forward and second ruck.

He has been 10 kg too light as a ruckman, and that’s why Grundy and Goldstein have had a history of ‘monstering’ him. It was predictable, but because people can see upside in 3 or 4 years we have to let it cost us games in the present.

Grundy was close to best on ground in 2 games the Dogs could have won last season and definitely best on ground this year. The debacle in round one had a number of clearly avoidable features, and ruck was one of them.

It's one of the reasons why we need someone like Trengove in the side to offer support but we do have a tendency to throw players into the deep end as it's not a position we really plan to cover.

[Bornadog]

Re: Rating our list 2020

Grundy well ahead.

I wouldn't say well ahead. Average of 7 more hitouts and 5 more disposals per game. Same amount of goals, but Grundy is better at stoppages.

We are comparing a ruckman to Grundy who is an out and out gun. I don't expect English to be as good as Grundy (but you never know)

Against Gawn and Goldstien, English holds his own at age 22. whether he continues to develop, time will tell.

[Danjul]

Re: Rating our list 2020

Interesting fact.

In his first year, 2013, Gawn was one of three Melbourne ruckmen who had over 40 hitouts in a game.

(He was not carrying the ruck role single handedly.)

[Bornadog]

Re: Rating our list 2020

Interesting fact.

In his first year, 2013, Gawn was one of three Melbourne ruckmen who had over 40 hitouts in a game.

(He was not carrying the ruck role single handedly.)

and Dawson Simpson had 55, Blicavs 11 and no other ruckman for Melbourne had a hitout.

[comrade]

Re: Rating our list 2020

I'm all for any personnel changes that leads to Naughton going back to the position he'll have the most positive impact on our overall performance which is in defence.