Just because English was BOG doesn't mean...

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  • mjp
    Bulldog Team of the Century
    • Jan 2007
    • 7366

    Just because English was BOG doesn't mean...

    ...that our ruck "problems" are solved.

    Nor does the fact that he got smashed by Grundy mean that they are insurmountable.

    Just because Weightman did a couple of flashy things it doesn't mean we have 'found' a small forward. Nor does it mean we haven't. Etc. Etc.

    We still have a list of largely 'unproven' players. Watching two of 'Team Bailey' (Smith and Williams) this year, you would have to think they could almost be added to the group of 'proven' AFL players in our side. I think Liber is close to 're-claiming' that status as well post injury. The likes of Bruce, English, Dale...well, one (or two) swallows don't make a summer.

    Watching the game last night I am continually struck by how LITTLE experience so many of our players have in dealing with challenging games of footy...we just aren't in close games these days. We are either 'on' or 'not on' and the results seem to be one way or another. If we can get 'just a few more' players up to that consistent level of performance where they have 'experienced enough' such that whether they are in form or not, feeling 'confident' or not, having a 'good day' or not, their level of performance/impact on the game only varies by 10-15% then we have the makings of a really strong, balanced team.

    My love for Crozier is well known - but he is just a good player. He probably isn't an AA-calibre player...but he has literally seen it all and seemingly knows what to do to either minimise the damage/maximise the benefit in any given situation. We just need to get him a few more mates. Things are building - they really are. Games like the Carlton one are still going to happen - hell, think of Richmond in the 2018 prelim - but hopefully games like the Giants prelim or Collingwood R#1 are starting to move into the rear view mirror.
    What should I tell her? She's going to ask.
  • SonofScray
    Coaching Staff
    • Apr 2008
    • 4234

    #2
    Re: Just because English was BOG doesn't mean...

    It's a good reflection. I am full of belief about the talent that exists across the bulk of most squads we put out. Our best is good enough, on its day. I'm not sure how many "days" we have in us though. It's a real roller coaster still. I'm riding it, warts and all.
    Time and Tide Waits For No Man

    Comment

    • Bornadog
      WOOF Clubhouse Leader
      • Jan 2007
      • 66738

      #3
      Re: Just because English was BOG doesn't mean...

      People may not like hearing that we are young and inexperienced, but that is the reality of where we are at. There is nothing like experience in a team to give you consistency. Even Keath hasn't played 50 games yet, but he does have a mature head.

      Last night:


      Keath, Alex 37
      Lipinski, Patrick 37
      English, Timothy 36
      Smith, Bailey 30
      Young, Lachie R 7
      Vandermeer, Laitham 6
      West, Rhylee 6
      Weightman, Cody 1
      On top of the above players, this year we have played West (6), Butler (2), Cavarra (1).

      I think the future is bright, but we need to stick with these guys (if we think they are ok) and get some experience into them and then who knows how far we can go.
      FFC: Established 1883

      Premierships: AFL 1954, 2016 VFA - 1898,99,1900, 1908, 1913, 1919-20, 1923-24, VFL: 2014, 2016 . Champions of Victoria 1924. AFLW - 2018.

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      • boydogs
        WOOF Member
        • Apr 2009
        • 5844

        #4
        Re: Just because English was BOG doesn't mean...

        If English keeps clunking them in the F50 he could be a second ruck and we could benefit from his height & athleticism without being torched at the source
        If you kicked five goals and Tom Boyd kicked five goals, Tom Boyd kicked more goals than you.

        Formerly gogriff

        Comment

        • Remi Moses
          WOOF Member
          • Jan 2009
          • 14785

          #5
          Re: Just because English was BOG doesn't mean...

          Regardless of what people think on here or whatever
          Afl footballers don’t find their consistency until at least 70 games
          Some are quicker than others
          Ruckman don’t come good as rule until at least mid to late 20’s ( nearly all)
          English is an exceptionally talented young player but he’s going to have his growing pains
          Let’s enjoy his progress

          Comment

          • Remi Moses
            WOOF Member
            • Jan 2009
            • 14785

            #6
            Re: Just because English was BOG doesn't mean...

            Originally posted by boydogs
            If English keeps clunking them in the F50 he could be a second ruck and we could benefit from his height & athleticism without being torched at the source
            Torched at the source is opposition clearances
            Peter street used to get a thousand hit outs
            I’ll leave it there

            Comment

            • Bulldog Joe
              Premiership Moderator
              • Jul 2009
              • 5572

              #7
              Re: Just because English was BOG doesn't mean...

              English is certainly developing and last night he produced probably his best "Rucking" performance.

              He is probably a long way off being dominant in hitouts, but he was remarkably better in getting advantage from the hitouts he did get.

              His ability as a tall midfielder is what sets him apart and he needs to not lose that ability, while he improves his ruck craft. This may mean a compromise in strength/bulk vs agility.

              I would like us to have a better option on ground to cover his spells, but he will now be making opposition coaches think about how to counter his strengths.

              Bailey Williams seems to have consolidated his position, while Bailey Smith has surely established himself as a quality player.

              We do need 2 or 3 players like Vandermeer, Weightman and West to take the step. It would also help a lot if someone like Bailey Dale could bring their worst much closer to the best they have shown.
              Life is to be Enjoyed not Endured

              Comment

              • azabob
                Hall of Fame
                • Sep 2008
                • 15321

                #8
                Re: Just because English was BOG doesn't mean...

                Originally posted by bornadog
                People may not like hearing that we are young and inexperienced, but that is the reality of where we are at. There is nothing like experience in a team to give you consistency.

                On top of the above players, this year we have played West (6), Butler (2), Cavarra (1).

                I think the future is bright, but we need to stick with these guys (if we think they are ok) and get some experience into them and then who knows how far we can go.
                Originally posted by Remi Moses
                Regardless of what people think on here or whatever
                Afl footballers don’t find their consistency until at least 70 games
                Yes we are young, but as we all know it is self inflicted with our list management strategy. I really wish the club would stop talking about it like we had no control over it.

                We seem intent on churning and burning once our players hit the 70 game mark.

                Just because we are young does not guarantee anything.
                More of an In Bruges guy?

                Comment

                • comrade
                  Hall of Fame
                  • Jun 2008
                  • 18033

                  #9
                  Re: Just because English was BOG doesn't mean...

                  What are some options for ruck coverage when English has a spell? Because Cordy isn’t the answer.

                  I think Lewis Young could be a puzzle piece. Play at CHB, with Cordy as a third tall, and when English goes off, send Young into the ruck and roll Cordy over to the second tall forward for a brief stint?

                  Not sure where that would leave Wood.
                  Our 1954 premiership players are our heroes, and it has to be said that Charlie was their hero.

                  Comment

                  • azabob
                    Hall of Fame
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 15321

                    #10
                    Re: Just because English was BOG doesn't mean...

                    Originally posted by comrade
                    What are some options for ruck coverage when English has a spell? Because Cordy isn’t the answer.
                    Its a big problem. If we make it to finals we need to have sorted it out.

                    Trengrove is the answer but clearly not in our plans due to his lack of mobility.
                    More of an In Bruges guy?

                    Comment

                    • angelopetraglia
                      Bulldog Team of the Century
                      • Nov 2008
                      • 6844

                      #11
                      Re: Just because English was BOG doesn't mean...

                      English had a game last night that was rarefied air for a ruckman. It doesn't mean he can do it every week or against ever opponent but it is a type of game few ruckman can actually play. 22 touches, 6 clearances, 4 contested marks and a few brilliant ruck taps in a game with 20% less time than normal is just freakish.

                      He is only 22. Gawn is 28. What was Gawn doing at 22? Averaged 10 possessions per game. Averaged 14 HO per game. Last Season Gawn averaged 18 possessions per game and 40 HO.

                      Tim this year has averaged 17 possessions per game (shortened game time so 17 = 20) and only 15 HO per game.
                      Last edited by angelopetraglia; 18-07-2020, 12:28 PM.

                      Comment

                      • angelopetraglia
                        Bulldog Team of the Century
                        • Nov 2008
                        • 6844

                        #12
                        Re: Just because English was BOG doesn't mean...

                        Dean Cox. Progression to stardom.

                        Age & Average Disposals & Marks

                        20 = 8 & 2
                        21 = 10 & 4
                        22 = 11 & 4
                        23 = 14 & 5
                        24 = 16 & 7
                        25 = 18 & 7
                        26 = 19 & 6
                        27 = 22 & 6
                        28 = 22 & 6

                        English

                        19 = 7 & 1
                        20 = 13 & 5
                        21 = 13 & 4
                        22 = 17 & 6 (shortened game time so = 20 & 7)
                        Last edited by angelopetraglia; 18-07-2020, 12:48 PM.

                        Comment

                        • GVGjr
                          Moderator
                          • Nov 2006
                          • 44653

                          #13
                          Re: Just because English was BOG doesn't mean...

                          Originally posted by bornadog
                          People may not like hearing that we are young and inexperienced, but that is the reality of where we are at. There is nothing like experience in a team to give you consistency. Even Keath hasn't played 50 games yet, but he does have a mature head.
                          People actually love to hear that in a side that is rebuilding but our passive list management and top up approach indicates we haven't acknowledged a rebuild is place even if it has been happening by stealth.
                          We have an experienced list, we just aren't playing some of them. So if you use the old adage that if you are good enough you are old enough then an inexperienced team that is put on the park isn't the excuse it's often used as.

                          As an example, last year some people were saying we had enough KP players and ruck man but then at the end of the season applauded the club for getting two experienced KP players from other clubs. Most views on list management and the teams we put on the ground are very adaptable. We will probably chase another KP player at the end of the season.

                          I agree with the opening post, we do need to find some additional support for English and putting another player or two like Crozier into our best 22 would certainly help. At least we now clearly know that English is capable of better football.

                          Lloyd might help us if he can regain a bit of touch from last year, Suckling certainly helped us last night and I remain confident that Duryea will top off our back half if we can get him right.

                          It's the stop/start nature of our player development that is hard to understand for me and it's perhaps the reason why we can keep saying we have a young and inexperienced list.

                          We put development games into the likes of Will Hayes last year before he was really ready and this year he had been unsighted.
                          We put games into Lachie Young as a defender last season and before last night I don't think he had even made the emergency list except for his late call up last week.
                          We appear to have lost some faith in Lewis Young after setting him up last year for a bigger role this year and the development of Greene and Lynch has been stymied after some promising signs in previous years...I get that injuries has played a part in it as well
                          On top of that we lost faith in Rhyley West after one poor showing and who knows where we are with Roarke Smith

                          It's like we start something but never quite stay the course, losing faith but never really addressing things at the end of the season.
                          There are a lot of players on our list who have had senior football experience but someone has then hit the pause button.

                          We know are best is pretty good, we just need to know if we can close the gap on the bad performances just a bit

                          We are still right in this and a genuine chance to go far when it counts and to me it's not an age or experience reason
                          Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"

                          Comment

                          • Bulldog4life
                            WOOF Member
                            • Oct 2007
                            • 9607

                            #14
                            Re: Just because English was BOG doesn't mean...

                            Richmond won a grand final with Grigg as it's second ruck. It is not a huge problem for us.

                            Comment

                            • Topdog
                              Bulldog Team of the Century
                              • Jan 2007
                              • 7471

                              #15
                              Re: Just because English was BOG doesn't mean...

                              Originally posted by angelopetraglia

                              English

                              18 = 7 & 1
                              19 = 13 & 5
                              20 = 13 & 4
                              21 = 17 & 6
                              Timmy is 22, nearly 23. Doesn't diminish your point in any way. He is progressing fantastically.

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