What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

[Bulldog Revolution]

Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

Its probably worth noting that most would have not have expected Dan Butler to have had such an impact

He's had a fantastic year, and I personally love the way he goes about it

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

I think we need to change the plans. They have not worked in years.

As evidence:

Carlton destroyed the Dogs early in 2019. Yet they hadn’t won a game for a long time. They did it again in 2020 when the Dogs supposedly had a stronger team.

St Kilda has finished the season below the Dogs for 6? Years. Last year they humiliated the Dogs and did it again this year. Then in the final they were more than 4 goals ahead at 3/4 time.

If teams residing lower on the ladder can consistently worry a talented group there is a fault in the game plan.

Bringing in players from from other teams hasn’t worked because they cannot adjust to our game plan. In fact we have exported more successful players than are being proposed. We want a hard working small forward- get Dahl back. Want a full back - get Roughy back.

We need to be careful about recruiting players from weaker Clubs eg Bruce from St Kilda who had been struggling, likewise Keath from a poor Adelaide team and similarly Gardner from Geelong reserves team. Successful Clubs have targeted obvious talent from GWS.
I am amazed that the Brisbane Lions would recruit a Daniher for example given his history of injuries etc and the poor culture that has existed at Essendon.
Not sure if it is a good policy to consider players like Roughead who should have been retained in the first place but was considered dispensable at the time and Dahlhaus.

[soupman]

Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

English.

Who else have we drafted other than Lewis Young?

English is a controversial one as to whether we are developing him well but I'll still pay it.

Boyd, Cordy, Collins, Adams, English, Young, Mullenger-McHugh, Schache, Naughton, Gardner are all the young talls we have picked up in Beveridges tenure.

There are 3 AFL quality guys in there, with an additional 5 being borderline AFL quality. I suspect that's par but it's hardly inspiring.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

English is a controversial one as to whether we are developing him well but I'll still pay it.

Boyd, Cordy, Collins, Adams, English, Young, Mullenger-McHugh, Schache, Naughton, Gardner are all the young talls we have picked up in Beveridges tenure.

There are 3 AFL quality guys in there, with an additional 5 being borderline AFL quality. I suspect that's par but it's hardly inspiring.

English unlike John Schultz and Scott Wynd who were natural ruck men does not after 4 years appeal as a natural ruckman. Schultz represented Victoria in his first year and remained a State player for the next 10 years with both he and Wynd going on to win Brownlow Medals. Tim English has the skills to be a key forward but given our inability to attract another ruckman has been forced to continue as our number one ruck.

[jazzadogs]

Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

English unlike John Schultz and Scott Wynd who were natural ruck men does not after 4 years appeal as a natural ruckman. Schultz represented Victoria in his first year and remained a State player for the next 10 years with both he and Wynd going on to win Brownlow Medals. Tim English has the skills to be a key forward but given our inability to attract another ruckman has been forced to continue as our number one ruck.

I thought I'd look back at English's history in the ruck, and found this article link.

This particular quote was pretty distressing:
"the beauty for the Bulldogs is that they can let the 19-year-old develop in the VFL for the first couple of years, with premiership ruckmen Jordan Roughead and Tom Boyd to hold down the senior position in the meantime.

When English adds size to his upper body and can cope with the demands of AFL footy, the Bulldogs' will become even more versatile, with Roughead to push forward or back and Boyd to spend more time stationed inside 50."

FWIW he was playing as a midfielder 3 years before the draft, then had his significant growth spurt. It makes sense that he is not a natural ruckman given that history, but he really needs to work on his grappling/wrestling at ball ups and boundary throw ins.

[Axe Man]

Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

We need to get Tim angry, like Coach Klein did with Bobby Boucher.

[Bornadog]

Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

English is a controversial one as to whether we are developing him well but I'll still pay it.

Boyd, Cordy, Collins, Adams, English, Young, Mullenger-McHugh, Schache, Naughton, Gardner are all the young talls we have picked up in Beveridges tenure.

There are 3 AFL quality guys in there, with an additional 5 being borderline AFL quality. I suspect that's par but it's hardly inspiring.

We are talking about developing players and GVGjr said we suck at developing talls.

Boyd retired, so we leave him aside - but virtually BOG in a GF

Naughton and English are first rounders and no doubt makes a difference. Both developing nicely

Cordy - hardly a tall when you are the same size as Bont - but can't see issue in his development

Collins, Mullenger-McHugh - not development issues, they are drafting failures

Adams - wanted to leave, also a mature recruit - doesn't count

Schache, Young - well both are still young and who knows how much they develop

Gardner - time will tell.


So in your list, I would argue only two where the jury is out for failing in developing them. Remember, most talls don't peak till at least 25.

[jazzadogs]

Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

We are talking about developing players and GVGjr said we suck at developing talls.

Boyd retired, so we leave him aside - but virtually BOG in a GF

Naughton and English are first rounders and no doubt makes a difference. Both developing nicely

Cordy - hardly a tall when you are the same size as Bont - but can't see issue in his development

Collins, Mullenger-McHugh - not development issues, they are drafting failures

Adams - wanted to leave, also a mature recruit - doesn't count

Schache, Young - well both are still young and who knows how much they develop

Gardner - time will tell.


So in your list, I would argue only two where the jury is out for failing in developing them. Remember, most talls don't peak till at least 25.

It's hard to argue that Gardner hasn't improved and developed while he's been on our list. Whether that improvement has got him to AFL standard is up for debate, but the overall development is undeniable.

[GVGjr]

Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

English.

Who else have we drafted other than Lewis Young?

I thought you said ruckman were different to KPP? Either way with whatever interpretation is applied, English isn't the finished product yet (although I'm confident he can be) and Bevo is lamenting our lack of height around the ground.
We are certainly preferring to trade for the KP types with the likes of Hamling, Boyd, Trengove, Schache, Gardner, Bruce and Keath all traded or listed than necessarily developing our own. Perhaps we need to be prepared to invest a bit more on some taller prospects and back our development

This misses might be Collins, Adams, Young (I still have high hopes), Sweet, Mullenger-McHugh and Goetz

[GVGjr]

Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

We are talking about developing players and GVGjr said we suck at developing talls.

Boyd retired, so we leave him aside - but virtually BOG in a GF

Naughton and English are first rounders and no doubt makes a difference. Both developing nicely

Cordy - hardly a tall when you are the same size as Bont - but can't see issue in his development

Collins, Mullenger-McHugh - not development issues, they are drafting failures

Adams - wanted to leave, also a mature recruit - doesn't count

Schache, Young - well both are still young and who knows how much they develop

Gardner - time will tell.


So in your list, I would argue only two where the jury is out for failing in developing them. Remember, most talls don't peak till at least 25.

Please don't misquote me, I never said we suck at it. You were offering up that the lack of development this year was because there was no VFL. What I said was our lack of development for KPP has been happening for more than this year and that we prefer to trade for established talls (the quicker fix) than develop our own.

I think what I have said is pretty accurate but I never said we suck at it. That is your interpretation of what I said and I don't believe it is accurate.

[Bornadog]

Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

Please don't misquote me, I never said we suck at it. You were offering up that the lack of development this year was because there was no VFL. What I said was our lack of development for KPP has been happening for more than this year and that we prefer to trade for established talls (the quicker fix) than develop our own.

I think what I have said is pretty accurate but I never said we suck at it. That is your interpretation of what I said and I don't believe it is accurate.

Ok maybe bad choice of words

Outside of Naughton, who has been an absolute gem, we haven't been convincing in developing our taller KPP for a while now

[soupman]

Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

We are talking about developing players and GVGjr said we suck at developing talls.

Well two proper AFL quality talls (one of which is frequently not good at the one position we use him in) would suggest we aren't great.

I concede it's a really difficult argument because there are so many variables, for example Ryan Gardner can only be so good, if he only develops into a fringe AFL player is that a failure of development or a testament to how well we developed him that a player of his ability even got that good.

I'm not sure clubs typically develop an abundance of good talls anyway but arguably Naughton and English are the only two talls to feature in our side for the last few years that we can claim to have developed that would be automatic picks. Cordy might just sneak in but I'd hardly expect people to consider him a walk up start.

Collins, Mullenger-McHugh - not development issues, they are drafting failures

Schache, Young - well both are still young and who knows how much they develop

If Schache and Young have a 2021 like they did a 2020 is that due to development or do they become drafting failures as well? At the very least development works in tandem with the draft, with both needing to be successes to result in a good player. I understand Collins and NMM weren't very good, but we saw enough in them to give them both multiple years (Sweet as well) so not sure we can hide behind the "we were lumped with this crap by the recruiters" argument.

Remember, most talls don't peak till at least 25.

Yeah they don't peak till they're 25 but they usually become contributors pretty early. Just looking at four clubs randomly (West Coast, Port, GWS and Essendon) and the only AFL quality talls they have that weren't already well on their way by the age of say 22 are Dixon, Lycett, Hooker and Bellchambers and they still managed about 12 games in their 22nd year.

Edit: I agree we probably don't suck at it but we are much closer to sucking at it than excelling imo.

[Bornadog]

Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

Edit: I agree we probably don't suck at it but we are much closer to sucking at it than excelling imo.

We also have to ask, is it failure to develop, or bad drafting, or the player is just not good enough?

Sometimes talls are brilliant in junior years, because they are so much bigger than other kids and they dominate. When the other kids catchup and become men, then it gets harder.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

Well Schache arguably has talent doesn’t he? It’s mental with him. In my mind you either have the physicality or you don’t...there’s only so much you can do to "coach" it. On talent alone he’s a start in our 22 every week.

[DOG GOD]

Re: What can the Western Bulldogs do to fix their flaws?

Well Schache arguably has talent doesn’t he? It’s mental with him. In my mind you either have the physicality or you don’t...there’s only so much you can do to "coach" it. On talent alone he’s a start in our 22 every week.

And it gripes me to see someone talented, being shafted on the basis that he isn’t physical enough, yet Tim (because he’s pretty much the only ruck of note on our list) gets a free ride only based on where he plays. If he was a CHF, would he be given the same treatment as Schache ?