Three things you've learned. Round eleven 2021 v Melb

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Three things you've learned. Round eleven 2021 v Melb

You're selling Tomlinson short. He's been fantastic all year and my Melbourne supporting mate is absolutely gutted he's down. He's been way better for them this year than Wood has been for us, and that was the comparison. Have you watched him / Melbourne much this year? While Lever and May have helped him immeasurably Melbourne were very very happy with Tomlinson and they view him as a big loss. Was having a breakout season and was not the player you remember at GWS.

As for Viney he was slated for AA in 2016 but got injured. He's won a B&F and been runner up twice. How many has Dunks won? I'm all for rating our players but sometimes you've got to take the glasses off. Melbourne were two best 22 down, one mid, one defender we are two best 22 mids down and (probably) one best 22 defender down.

As for Hore he's a role player much like ours.

Injuries are no excuse for what we dished up.

Anyone could play as a third tall behind Lever and May. You're giving Tomlinson way too much credit. He really isn't a loss on his own and isn't as important to Melbourne as Wood is to us. That's not rose coloured glasses, it's just fact.

Not sure 'would have been AA if not for injury' is worth mentioning, particularly considering Dunks has had major injuries which has robbed him of the same opportunity. I'd pick Dunks over Viney every day of the week, he can play multiple roles which Viney can't and it's clear we're missing his aerial presence, defensive running and ball winning ability. It's really compounded by our other injuries, especially Treloar. It allows sides to sit on / shut out the likes of Libba. Vineys a loss of course, but anyone who makes the argument that we aren't heavily disadvantaged by injuries in comparison to Melbourne is ignoring a truth about footy - you can't have multiple elite players and key cogs out of your side and expect to beat other top teams.

I agree last night's performance was poor but there are explanations for it. I've ridden the team as hard as any since 2016, last night's result doesn't concern me at all. Staying healthy and st the right time does and we need to continue to bank wins any way we can, especially against the middle to lower teams, until we get key players back.

[1eyedog]

Re: Three things you've learned. Round eleven 2021 v Melb

Anyone could play as a third tall behind Lever and May. You're giving Tomlinson way too much credit. He really isn't a loss on his own and isn't as important to Melbourne as Wood is to us. That's not rose coloured glasses, it's just fact.

Not sure 'would have been AA if not for injury' is worth mentioning, particularly considering Dunks has had major injuries which has robbed him of the same opportunity. I'd pick Dunks over Viney every day of the week, he can play multiple roles which Viney can't and it's clear we're missing his aerial presence, defensive running and ball winning ability. It's really compounded by our other injuries, especially Treloar. It allows sides to sit on / shut out the likes of Libba. Vineys a loss of course, but anyone who makes the argument that we aren't heavily disadvantaged by injuries in comparison to Melbourne is ignoring a truth about footy - you can't have multiple elite players and key cogs out of your side and expect to beat other top teams.

I agree last night's performance was poor but there are explanations for it. I've ridden the team as hard as any since 2016, last night's result doesn't concern me at all. Staying healthy and st the right time does and we need to continue to bank wins any way we can, especially against the middle to lower teams, until we get key players back.

Agreed Wood is more important to us than Tomlinson is to them and that really is part of the problem because Wood really hasn't been very good for a long time. He has not played the role of the inceptor since 2016 and has become defensively minded for the benefit of the team. He basically plays third man up. His kicking is dreadful. At the start of the year many didn't have him in the side and he hasn't done a heap to suggest he should be, but he's needed because our second talls are crap.

Viney vs Dunkley / Treloar. Sure, we are down one there and a good one too, but I'm only conceding one as I disagree that (let's say Treloar then and not Dunkley) is a massive upgrade on Viney. So where are we on it? Easton Wood who hasn't been very good for a long time more important to us than Tomlinson, ok, and Dunkley down.

Take out Treloar for Viney because surely that's fair enough. Add Wood if you like but I don't see the improvement there.

That leaves Dunkley. If Dunkley plays last night do we win?

Great that you're not concerned about last nights win, fantastic, but I am. Last night was a mirror image of the GWS final and the Saints Final. Not switched on, beaten up early / completely destroyed not even a top 8 performance in the first half. What I'm trying to say is (as per your OP), we cannot blame injuries for the loss. We could possibly look at the balance of the list, who we brought in etc. but we are mentally weak (still), we overrate our depth and again, Bevo was reluctant to try anything different, hoping it would just turn around for us.

Happy to agree to disagree.

[Bornadog]

Re: Three things you've learned. Round eleven 2021 v Melb

Agreed Wood is more important to us than Tomlinson is to them and that really is part of the problem because Wood really hasn't been very good for a long time. Viney vs Dunkley / Treloar. Sure, we are down one there and a good one too, but I'm only conceding one as I disagree that (let's say Treloar then and not Dunkley) is a massive upgrade on Viney. So where are we on it? Easton Wood who hasn't been very good for a long time more important to us than Tomlinson, ok, and Dunkley down.

Take out Treloar for Viney because surely that's fair enough. Add Wood if you like but I don't see the improvement there.

That leaves Dunkley. If Dunkley plays last night do we win?

I really don't rate Viney at all. He has been poor for a number of years and is just an average mid who only gets around 20 disposals a game.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Three things you've learned. Round eleven 2021 v Melb

Agreed Wood is more important to us than Tomlinson is to them and that really is part of the problem because Wood really hasn't been very good for a long time. Viney vs Dunkley / Treloar. Sure, we are down one there and a good one too, but I'm only conceding one as I disagree that (let's say Treloar then and not Dunkley) is a massive upgrade on Viney. So where are we on it? Easton Wood who hasn't been very good for a long time more important to us than Tomlinson, ok, and Dunkley down.

Take out Treloar for Viney because surely that's fair enough. Add Wood if you like but I don't see the improvement there.

That leaves Dunkley. If Dunkley plays last night do we win?

Wood has been very good this year. He's not the intercept king he was in 2015/2016 but he's still important given our structure and lack of KPDs. That he's much more important to us than Tomlinson is to Melbourne is a symptom of our list management, I agree. We really need to find a quality KPD quickly.

If Dunkley plays it's a hell of a lot closer. I think people underestimate the impact of having two first choice elite mids out has. The midfield is our competitive advantage; no side can go with them at full strength IMO. If you took Oliver out of Melbourne last night, all of a sudden sides would put all their time into Petracca and they become a shell of their best self.

You can cover a few injuries, and our depth is great, but when you add Martin (Sweet got hammered as expected) and have to pick kids like Garcia and Butler (because McLean, Richards, Scott, Jong are all out) then last night shouldn't surprise.

[1eyedog]

Re: Three things you've learned. Round eleven 2021 v Melb

Wood has been very good this year. He's not the intercept king he was in 2015/2016 but he's still important given our structure and lack of KPDs. That he's much more important to us than Tomlinson is to Melbourne is a symptom of our list management, I agree. We really need to find a quality KPD quickly.

If Dunkley plays it's a hell of a lot closer. I think people underestimate the impact of having two first choice elite mids out has. The midfield is our competitive advantage; no side can go with them at full strength IMO. If you took Oliver out of Melbourne last night, all of a sudden sides would put all their time into Petracca and they become a shell of their best self.

You can cover a few injuries, and our depth is great, but when you add Martin (Sweet got hammered as expected) and have to pick kids like Garcia and Butler (because McLean, Richards, Scott, Jong are all out) then last night shouldn't surprise.

Fair enough I understand and respect your position.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Three things you've learned. Round eleven 2021 v Melb

Fair enough I understand and respect your position.

It's a good debate 1ED and why I enjoy this forum so much. What I will say is that this group still needs to prove itself on the big stage and on big occasions, so the jury is still out on that. I was filthy after our recent losses in finals and even after our loss to a depleted Richmond. I just hope we aren't hamstrung by external factors when the next big challenge comes.

[westdog54]

Re: Three things you've learned. Round eleven 2021 v Melb

I really don't rate Viney at all. He has been poor for a number of years and is just an average mid who only gets around 20 disposals a game.

Last night just demonstrated how little the Demons miss him.

His one strength is winning clearances and Oliver and Petracca had us well covered there.

I've watched very little of the Demons on the last couple of years and last night was my first good look at Clayton Oliver. I was astonished at just how good he is.

[Bornadog]

Re: Three things you've learned. Round eleven 2021 v Melb

His one strength is winning clearances and Oliver and Petracca had us well covered there.

We won Clearances 36 to 27. Of those they won 2 extra in centre clearance, but we won Stoppage Clearances.

[Dry Rot]

Re: Three things you've learned. Round eleven 2021 v Melb

1. This team continues to have serious questions about handling pressure in crunch games: 2019 SF v GWS; 2020 SF v Saints; and now H&A v Demons.

2. Our depth is not quite as good as we thought, we are now playing guys who are not ready or sub standard now eg Butler.

3. R Smith can play a role; B Smith deserves a stint in the Twos to sort some things out

[boydogs]

Re: Three things you've learned. Round eleven 2021 v Melb

English has become an amazing contested mark

Hunter's game stands up in finals like pressure

Lipinski tackles like Gary Ablett Jnr with one shoulder

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Three things you've learned. Round eleven 2021 v Melb

1. I don't care what anyone says, when you lose 2 elite mids, your first ruck, a key defender (Wood) and a couple of roleplayers you're not going to best the top 2-3 sides in the comp. It's just reality.

2. Unfortunately Lipinski is done with us.

3. English looks good - huge positive moving forward.

We didn't make these excuses in 2016.

[comrade]

Re: Three things you've learned. Round eleven 2021 v Melb

We didn't make these excuses in 2016.

Relying on players to come back is a bit fraught with danger anyway. Let's say there is 8 weeks to go until we get Dunks and Treloar back...are we really going to get through that period unscathed? We're copping injuries every week so hoping we'll overcome the best sides when our best 22 come together is hoping for something that is unlikely to every happen.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Re: Three things you've learned. Round eleven 2021 v Melb

1. Melbourne have very few weak links right now.
2. I can genuinely see why Roarke Smith is in our list.
3. We'll be out in straight sets in finals without Treloar and Dunkley.

We really could have used Wallis in the guts. Without Treloar and Dunkley, Wallis has a role.

[Mantis]

Re: Three things you've learned. Round eleven 2021 v Melb

1. This team continues to have serious questions about handling pressure in crunch games: 2019 SF v GWS; 2020 SF v Saints; and now H&A v Demons.

2. Our depth is not quite as good as we thought, we are now playing guys who are not ready or sub standard now eg Butler.

3. R Smith can play a role; B Smith deserves a stint in the Twos to sort some things out

Realistically how deep should our depth run?

We probably have 9 of our best 30 missing so when that happens you’re forced into playing those who are ranked lower on the list and many of those aren’t going to be ready to perform against the best teams in the competition... it’s just fact.

[The bulldog tragician]

Re: Three things you've learned. Round eleven 2021 v Melb

1. Melbourne are an extremely good side, as someone who watches relatively little footy apart from us, comes as an unwelcome surprise.

2. Our team depends on the energy of the crowd. This lockdown if extended could make a big difference to our fortunes.

3. injuries do matter, no matter the ‘one soldier replaces another’ mantra. Gawn’s influence could have been curbed by being pitted against an experienced campaigner instead of a raw ruckman. Treloar’s run could have broken the lines. The roles being played by Scott and Hannan may have reduced the Demons freedom to intercept mark that damaged us so badly.