Why do we seem to think adding players is 'The Answer'?

[mjp]

Re: Why do we seem to think adding players is 'The Answer'?

Have Geelong not been somewhat guilty of doing something similar with the likes of Jenkins and Crameri in the past?

Bit parters and backups.

If Geelong have been blind it has been in relation to the ruck position where they have really had trouble finding someone to 'stick'.

[Bornadog]

Re: Why do we seem to think adding players is 'The Answer'?

Back to my OP - recruiting Josh Bruce didn't move the needle in the same way that recruiting Lobb wont move the needle.

I am not a fan of recruiting Lobb and Jones due to their age. If you look back at the history of my posts over 15 plus years, I have been criticised for pointing out a recruits age, and been told it shouldn't matter. But, I like to recruit in players that will give us a few years at their peak, not at the end of their career.

Bit parters and backups.


If Geelong have been blind it has been in relation to the ruck position where they have really had trouble finding someone to 'stick'.

Rucks, I feel are the hardest to get, and I get why we are chasing Lobb, but I am really unsure whether it is a good move.

Are we better off to just suck it up re 2nd ruck ie use Bruce while we develop Darcy and recruit in some rookie rucks (maybe a mature person from lower leagues and a young 18/19 year old) and develop them as well and see who is the best for the future?

Sweet can cover when Tim is injured.

[azabob]

Re: Why do we seem to think adding players is 'The Answer'?

Back to my OP - recruiting Josh Bruce didn't move the needle in the same way that recruiting Lobb wont move the needle.

Do you think we have a problem with our relief ruck during the game?

If we do, what is your solution to fix it?

[Mofra]

Re: Why do we seem to think adding players is 'The Answer'?

1/. When they NEED a recruit, they go get 'best of breed'. They needed a forward - they went out and got Cameron. They needed an outside runner...they went out and got Isaac Smith. They needed a mid? Where's Dangerfield at. They don't seem to worry too much about the mid-range players - when they recruit them (Ceglar, Dalhaus, Stanley etc) it seems to be 'well, we're a good club - we'll have you but on our terms'.

Well, we need a forward/second ruck and Lobb is 'best in breed' isn't he?
He's younger than Isaac Smith was in 2020 too when he crossed to Geelong.
I have little faith that Bruce will hold his spot next year.

Their "big" trade was Ottens who was maligned and got them three flags (our mini version of that was Boyd who was completely unproven at the time).

[Danjul]

Re: Why do we seem to think adding players is 'The Answer'?

I think you have been harsh on Bruce since we traded in him.

2020 wasn't a great year, but last year he was close to winning the Coleman if it wasn't for the ACL. I will take that any day.

The problem with Bruce is very simple. He is going to be played no matter what.

When he is out of form he gets games in the firsts to run into form.

That was done in 2020 and to describe it as not a great year is dishonest. It was disgraceful and his selection was shameful. Held back the team on the field and prevented player development. And he never gained form. Look at the elimination final where he got us eliminated.

In 2021 he was obviously in better shape and certainly should have been played. And after his 10 goal haul against north he seemed very confident in later games. Helped get and keep us at the top of the ladder. Excellent.

This year he has been totally out of form again, although some think goalless for three and a half games was an excellent return. He was a liability against Geelong and Freo. Poor performances which did more to help us lose than win. Couldn’t run properly, couldn’t turn, timing was out, generally made bad positions. All to be expected in the circumstances.

All others are judged on ‘where they are at’ . Bruce is judged on ‘where he has been’.

And they don’t even try to hide the fact! It is the blatant disrespect for genuine ‘selection’ principles that gets me.

And I don’t blame Bruce In any way. They pick him so he plays. He does his best and I hope next year’s return is a repeat of 2021.

[MrMahatma]

Re: Why do we seem to think adding players is 'The Answer'?

Getting in different players definitely can help. Lake was a great acquisition for Hawthorn for example. Lever and May weren’t drafted by Melb. Lynch wasn’t drafted by Richmond.

Is getting Lobb alone going to turn us into the best team? No. Is not addressing 2nd ruck again this off season going to make us better? Nope.

We need to fill gaps on the list with talent. I don’t think anyone is suggesting “let’s get some rubbish players who play in positions we need”. We all want A-Graders. And we have a role for Lobb. I’d play him ahead of Bruce for sure. And we have a need for 1, prob 2 good key defenders. And we have a need to stronger on-field leadership, and for a stronger team defence, and for better goal kicking…

Getting in good players is part of the puzzle.

[AshMac]

Re: Why do we seem to think adding players is 'The Answer'?

Very good post. Couldn’t agree more. Neither lobbe or Jones excite me at all.

They’re ungettable I know but Sam Taylor from GWS or Barrass from WCE should be our benchmark. One can dream though

[boydogs]

Re: Why do we seem to think adding players is 'The Answer'?

But I have been trying to look at things from a little bit of a 'How would Geelong handle this' perspective (since they seem to finish top 4 every year and we can't do it ever).

I've been told that you're never finished as a footballer until you've been recruited to play Full Forward for Footscray. I think we could amend that to be 'full forward, or ruck, or 3rd tall, or 3rd tall defender, or...'.

If we want to get someone, let's target players with a good proportion of their prime ahead of them. And let's target players who FIT what we want to do. But I guess to do that you would have to KNOW what you want to do and, well...

Geelong are the kings of topping up with 30 year olds to avoid bottoming out

[mjp]

Re: Why do we seem to think adding players is 'The Answer'?

Do you think we have a problem with our relief ruck during the game?

If we do, what is your solution to fix it?

Ummm.

Maybe??

I sort of don't really think we have a 'real' problem but you can have 1 of 2 philosophies with this role:

1/. You pick a second ruckman who can 'RUCK' and accept that in most circumstances that player will be a replacement level forward (at best). Example? Jackson at Melbourne, Ryder at the Saints etc.

2/. You use a position player who is tall enough/strong enough to 'fill in' for 5-minutes per q/hold the fort BUT this player gives you genuine positive minutes in their primary position. Example? Blicavs at Geelong.

The challenge we have right now is we are using a player who fits in neither of those two categories...and that is a problem. Will Lobb solve that problem? Well - I'm not sure because I don't see any way we can play English, Lobb, Bruce, Jamarra and Naughton in the same team.

Right now - if I was coaching - I would probably WANT to do what Bevo IS doing which is play Bruce and roll him up into the ruck for 5mins per q whilst crossing my fingers that something 'clicked' for him up forward. I don't think I could keep doing it though as Bruce looks a million miles off AFL footy right now (coming back from an ACL is v. hard and he is a big unit so it's probably even harder) and I would want to at least TRY Sweet in that role on the basis that:
- Maybe English could play a 50-50 ruck-forward split which would be more effective than having Bruce up there.
- Even if Sweet only spends 5 mins per q up forward and 14-17 in the ruck hopefully that WOULDN'T compromise rotations TOO much.

Rotations would stress me out with Sweet though - I would worry about the amount of time I would need to sit him on the pine because of his lack of forward line understanding and the impact that would have on my running players (in particular the West/Garcia/Weightman pressure forwards who play high intensity roles and would be at risk of getting cooked!).

So do I think we have a problem? I think we have a bit of a balance problem (as I have said repeatedly) and I think it hurts us.

2x Tall backs + 1x utility (Think Gardner + Keath + either Cordy or O'Brien).
1x genuine small defender (we only have one - Duryea).
3x running defenders (Richards, Dale and Daniel).
3x Outside mids (Williams, Hunter and Treloar)
4x Inside Mids (Liber, Bont, Macrae and Dunks)
1x Ruckman (English)
2x Tall forwards + 1x Utility support (Naughton, Jamarra + Bruce/Sweet)
1x Genuine small forward (we don't have one but say Weightman)
3x mid size forwards (Garcia, West and McNeil)

I've probably missed someone in my typing rush but I genuinely think we get the balance wrong and go in with players uncertain as to what their roles are...

[mjp]

Re: Why do we seem to think adding players is 'The Answer'?

Geelong are the kings of topping up with 30 year olds to avoid bottoming out

Disagree.

[Grantysghost]

Re: Why do we seem to think adding players is 'The Answer'?

Ummm.

Maybe??

I sort of don't really think we have a 'real' problem but you can have 1 of 2 philosophies with this role:

1/. You pick a second ruckman who can 'RUCK' and accept that in most circumstances that player will be a replacement level forward (at best). Example? Jackson at Melbourne, Ryder at the Saints etc.

2/. You use a position player who is tall enough/strong enough to 'fill in' for 5-minutes per q/hold the fort BUT this player gives you genuine positive minutes in their primary position. Example? Blicavs at Geelong.

The challenge we have right now is we are using a player who fits in neither of those two categories...and that is a problem. Will Lobb solve that problem? Well - I'm not sure because I don't see any way we can play English, Lobb, Bruce, Jamarra and Naughton in the same team.

Right now - if I was coaching - I would probably WANT to do what Bevo IS doing which is play Bruce and roll him up into the ruck for 5mins per q whilst crossing my fingers that something 'clicked' for him up forward. I don't think I could keep doing it though as Bruce looks a million miles off AFL footy right now (coming back from an ACL is v. hard and he is a big unit so it's probably even harder) and I would want to at least TRY Sweet in that role on the basis that:
- Maybe English could play a 50-50 ruck-forward split which would be more effective than having Bruce up there.
- Even if Sweet only spends 5 mins per q up forward and 14-17 in the ruck hopefully that WOULDN'T compromise rotations TOO much.

Rotations would stress me out with Sweet though - I would worry about the amount of time I would need to sit him on the pine because of his lack of forward line understanding and the impact that would have on my running players (in particular the West/Garcia/Weightman pressure forwards who play high intensity roles and would be at risk of getting cooked!).

So do I think we have a problem? I think we have a bit of a balance problem (as I have said repeatedly) and I think it hurts us.

2x Tall backs + 1x utility (Think Gardner + Keath + either Cordy or O'Brien).
1x genuine small defender (we only have one - Duryea).
3x running defenders (Richards, Dale and Daniel).
3x Outside mids (Williams, Hunter and Treloar)
4x Inside Mids (Liber, Bont, Macrae and Dunks)
1x Ruckman (English)
2x Tall forwards + 1x Utility support (Naughton, Jamarra + Bruce/Sweet)
1x Genuine small forward (we don't have one but say Weightman)
3x mid size forwards (Garcia, West and McNeil)

I've probably missed someone in my typing rush but I genuinely think we get the balance wrong and go in with players uncertain as to what their roles are...

If you were given the keys to the market and told to get what you think we need positionally what would be at the top of your shopping list?

For me it's a real intercept defender as it's super critical in Bevo's system.
Small crumbing forward.
Defensive mid.

[mjp]

Re: Why do we seem to think adding players is 'The Answer'?

If you were given the keys to the market and told to get what you think we need positionally what would be at the top of your shopping list?

For me it's a real intercept defender as it's super critical in Bevo's system.
Small crumbing forward.
Defensive mid.

The KEYS? The problem is to have the keys I would prob have to 'tweak' the system to fit what I think we need! And I don't think you can recruit on the basis that "well, if we get this guy then maybe Bevo will change the way we defend"...

I DO think we need genuine smalls at each end:
- Small defender with speed and tenacity who WANTS to play on an opponent. If that player happened to be 188cm with the ability to shut-down Fritsch AND Charlie Cameron all the better. So - I basically want young Dale Morris.
- Small forward who might occasionally try for mark of the year but is a genuine ground level player. Willie Rioli is out there...

What I really think we need to do is go to the draft and built our midfield/running player depth.

[FrediKanoute]

Re: Why do we seem to think adding players is 'The Answer'?

The problem with Bruce is very simple. He is going to be played no matter what.

When he is out of form he gets games in the firsts to run into form.

That was done in 2020 and to describe it as not a great year is dishonest. It was disgraceful and his selection was shameful. Held back the team on the field and prevented player development. And he never gained form. Look at the elimination final where he got us eliminated.

In 2021 he was obviously in better shape and certainly should have been played. And after his 10 goal haul against north he seemed very confident in later games. Helped get and keep us at the top of the ladder. Excellent.

This year he has been totally out of form again, although some think goalless for three and a half games was an excellent return. He was a liability against Geelong and Freo. Poor performances which did more to help us lose than win. Couldn’t run properly, couldn’t turn, timing was out, generally made bad positions. All to be expected in the circumstances.

All others are judged on ‘where they are at’ . Bruce is judged on ‘where he has been’.

And they don’t even try to hide the fact! It is the blatant disrespect for genuine ‘selection’ principles that gets me.

And I don’t blame Bruce In any way. They pick him so he plays. He does his best and I hope next year’s return is a repeat of 2021.

You are bang on and this is why Lobb was the perfect recruit last year because blind Freddy and the thre blind mice could see that coming off a reco there was no way Bruce would hit the fitness levels he needed to hit to play at the elvel we want him to play.

I think with a BIG pre-season he can go again in 2023, but if nothing else Lobb provides cover. So long as we don't overpay then I am ok with this.

[boydogs]

Re: Why do we seem to think adding players is 'The Answer'?

Disagree.

That doesn’t give me much to work with. They had Dangerfield fall in their laps as a local, other trades include Dahlhaus, Higgins, Crameri, Henderson, Isaac Smith, Zac Smith, Tuohy, Ablett, Steven, Jenkins and Ceglar

If you want to argue the merits of recruiting 30 year olds you might have a case but it sounds like you want the opposite and Geelong are your poster child

I thought Bruce and Keath were good business as mature but not Martin-mature, A-B graders in areas of need as we approached a window where our star mids were at their peaks. If Petracca wants to come to us for pick 15 that’s terrific, failing that we address our needs with players ready to perform now whilst the core of our list is

Do you also disagree that our inconsistency is due to not having a solid defense to withstand lapses in midfield intensity? To me the fix is adding players to improve our defence, including rucks to win the ball and small forwards to lock it in

[Bulldog4life]

Re: Why do we seem to think adding players is 'The Answer'?

Have Geelong not been somewhat guilty of doing something similar with the likes of Jenkins and Crameri in the past?

Every team has.