Liam Jones

[Grantysghost]

Re: Liam Jones

Monty comes to mind immediately. Tony Campbell returned but didn't play elsewhere in his absence. I'm sure there are others.

You guys have incredible memories!

[GVGjr]

Re: Liam Jones

Have we ever had a player leave and return?

There was a few from memory I'll have a bit of a check

Monty as Axe mentioned

Brad Hardie tried to return
Richard Osborne left us for the US and returned. Wheeler though it cost him his job.

[mjp]

Re: Liam Jones

Yes we have holes in the list but we should be celebrating the fact we brought a pick and a pick 2 into the club while we played in a GF one year, then made finals the next.

I have no issue with the selection of Jamarra and Darcy - it was good fortune of the highest order.

But for everyone proposing we trade away picks THIS YEAR, we really haven't drafted 'much' lately. We haven't and I just dont see how anyone can argue we have. In a 'normal year', we would have pick 13, pick 31 etc.

Last year we had 2, 43 and 61.
In 2020 it was 1 and 55.

We have selected talls - who take longer. And then been forced to take chances on late picks. For everyone saying 'Bedendo will be fine' etc, well, I hope he is. How many pick 55's make it though?

We haven't been to the draft much lately. We haven't. We need to get in some high end mids and running defenders. We DO. If we give up draft capital to get Lobb when we already have Naughton, Bruce, Jamarra and potentially Darcy as tall forwards, well, that's DUMB. We all talk about throwing around 2nd and 3rd round picks...well, that's more than we've had lately so hang onto them.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Re: Liam Jones

I have no issue with the selection of Jamarra and Darcy - it was good fortune of the highest order.

But for everyone proposing we trade away picks THIS YEAR, we really haven't drafted 'much' lately. We haven't and I just dont see how anyone can argue we have. In a 'normal year', we would have pick 13, pick 31 etc.

Last year we had 2, 43 and 61.
In 2020 it was 1 and 55.

We have selected talls - who take longer. And then been forced to take chances on late picks. For everyone saying 'Bedendo will be fine' etc, well, I hope he is. How many pick 55's make it though?

We haven't been to the draft much lately. We haven't. We need to get in some high end mids and running defenders. We DO. If we give up draft capital to get Lobb when we already have Naughton, Bruce, Jamarra and potentially Darcy as tall forwards, well, that's DUMB. We all talk about throwing around 2nd and 3rd round picks...well, that's more than we've had lately so hang onto them.

I agree with this post with extreme prejudice.

[GVGjr]

Re: Liam Jones

I have no issue with the selection of Jamarra and Darcy - it was good fortune of the highest order.

But for everyone proposing we trade away picks THIS YEAR, we really haven't drafted 'much' lately. We haven't and I just dont see how anyone can argue we have. In a 'normal year', we would have pick 13, pick 31 etc.

Last year we had 2, 43 and 61.
In 2020 it was 1 and 55.

We have selected talls - who take longer. And then been forced to take chances on late picks. For everyone saying 'Bedendo will be fine' etc, well, I hope he is. How many pick 55's make it though?

We haven't been to the draft much lately. We haven't. We need to get in some high end mids and running defenders. We DO. If we give up draft capital to get Lobb when we already have Naughton, Bruce, Jamarra and potentially Darcy as tall forwards, well, that's DUMB. We all talk about throwing around 2nd and 3rd round picks...well, that's more than we've had lately so hang onto them.

We needed Lobb more this year than we really do next year.
12 months back we knew Bruce was going to miss most of 2022, Ugle-Hagan wasn't showing much and Darcy missed a lot of the season with an injury which would delay his start of the 2022 season.
We also had the exciting Naughton and Schache who was having trouble putting in the form required.

Heading into 2023 we have seen some really good signs from Ugle-Hagan, Naughton kicked 50 goals, Darcy showed some talent and Bruce should return OK.
I get that we've committed to Lobb and he will upgrade that forward ruck position for us which we need but we can't over pay for him with a high draft pick.

Our needs are a mid, a key defender and a mid sized defender who can defend 1 v 1 but still be creative.
Later in the draft it's a ruckman and maybe another key defender.

[FrediKanoute]

Re: Liam Jones

We needed Lobb more this year than we really do next year.
12 months back we knew Bruce was going to miss most of 2022, Ugle-Hagan wasn't showing much and Darcy missed a lot of the season with an injury which would delay his start of the 2022 season.
We also had the exciting Naughton and Schache who was having trouble putting in the form required.

Heading into 2023 we have seen some really good signs from Ugle-Hagan, Naughton kicked 50 goals, Darcy showed some talent and Bruce should return OK.
I get that we've committed to Lobb and he will upgrade that forward ruck position for us which we need but we can't over pay for him with a high draft pick.

Our needs are a mid, a key defender and a mid sized defender who can defend 1 v 1 but still be creative.
Later in the draft it's a ruckman and maybe another key defender.

Agree with what you have said. I think we also need a crumbing small forward - love Cody, but he plays tall.

[soupman]

Re: Liam Jones

We haven't been to the draft much lately. We haven't. We need to get in some high end mids and running defenders. We DO. If we give up draft capital to get Lobb when we already have Naughton, Bruce, Jamarra and potentially Darcy as tall forwards, well, that's DUMB. We all talk about throwing around 2nd and 3rd round picks...well, that's more than we've had lately so hang onto them.

Agree with most of your post.

I am pro-Lobb though. Ruck forwards are super hard to find good ones of, especially ones who are genuinely good forwards. Lobb seems like he'll come to us for a reasonable contract and what I imagine is a second round pick. Agree missing out on using a pick 31 yet again is less than ideal but Lobb is worth the risk imo.

We are good enough to still compete with the top teams, Lobb helps fix a weakness (we lack any forwards with hurt factor once Naughton is shut down and in the majority of weeks where Weightman isn't firing), he gives us a viable backup/change up option in the ruck which we have been desperate for for years and takes the pressure off both JUH and Darcy having to immediately be impactful AFL players. I think those who say Darcy is good to go for this role are optimistic (dreamers?) and having one very promising key forward in the side in JUH is enough atm.

As for the second rounder, I definitely get the need to get talent onto the list but either we are trying to win or trying to "refresh". Jones and Lobb as recruits would indicate the former, and if we aren't splashing about our first rounders I think it's reasonable.

Besides, I think half our issue isn't the quality of player we are putting on the list but the type. We keep adding more and more undersized flankers with those late picks. I'm not saying these guys are easy to find with late picks, but we need a bunch of small forwards, key defenders, rucks and general defender types and they are all reasonably gettable with late/rookie picks. If we change the type of player we target, instead of going for roles we are already stacked in or for players with fairly low ceilings I think we give our list a much better shot at it.

[mjp]

Re: Liam Jones

Besides, I think half our issue isn't the quality of player we are putting on the list but the type.

I get the Lobb argument and you have made your case well...I think everyone knows I don't think Darcy is ready and wouldn't have selected him in the final...having 3x babes up in the forward line was never going to work when the pressure came...

With the section i have highlighted though, I think it is the opposite. If the players were 'BETTER' then there is no problem with them being small, flanker types. Hell, Liam Baker is a small, flanker type and I think we'd find a spot for him...the problem is that the players are either not ready 'YET' or never will be.

And this goes back to my point re the draft. Caleb Daniel 'fell' to pick 46 because of his size. Those picks 3rd round and on...they ALL have fleas. They are too small, too slow, too outside, too one dimensional etc. You kind of have to pick your poison. I don't know how to say it but it is as if we select the same player over and over again...how are Butler, McNeil and Scott different from one another?? I guess Scott is a bit 'tougher' but...I mean, what unique AFL ready skill do they show? None of them can really 'nail' a spot because they just aren't quite ready 'YET'. Will they get there? Who knows...everyone is on their own development journey!

If we pick earlier, we have a better chance of finding a player who can come in and impact. Compare Darcy to Arthur Jones. One pick 2 - misses 6 months, but makes an immediate impact. Jones in the 40's...MILES off it. MILES!! Again - can Jones make it? Of course...but it's not going to be in 2023!

Earlier picks - particularly mid sizers and smalls - can come in and help. They cost NOTHING.

[Bornadog]

Re: Liam Jones

I get the Lobb argument and you have made your case well...I think everyone knows I don't think Darcy is ready and wouldn't have selected him in the final...having 3x babes up in the forward line was never going to work when the pressure came...

With the section i have highlighted though, I think it is the opposite. If the players were 'BETTER' then there is no problem with them being small, flanker types. Hell, Liam Baker is a small, flanker type and I think we'd find a spot for him...the problem is that the players are either not ready 'YET' or never will be.

And this goes back to my point re the draft. Caleb Daniel 'fell' to pick 46 because of his size. Those picks 3rd round and on...they ALL have fleas. They are too small, too slow, too outside, too one dimensional etc. You kind of have to pick your poison. I don't know how to say it but it is as if we select the same player over and over again...how are Butler, McNeil and Scott different from one another?? I guess Scott is a bit 'tougher' but...I mean, what unique AFL ready skill do they show? None of them can really 'nail' a spot because they just aren't quite ready 'YET'. Will they get there? Who knows...everyone is on their own development journey!

If we pick earlier, we have a better chance of finding a player who can come in and impact. Compare Darcy to Arthur Jones. One pick 2 - misses 6 months, but makes an immediate impact. Jones in the 40's...MILES off it. MILES!! Again - can Jones make it? Of course...but it's not going to be in 2023!

Earlier picks - particularly mid sizers and smalls - can come in and help. They cost NOTHING.

We will have some early picks for Dunkley and we should use them wisely. JJ should also give us some picks (not sure what).

[soupman]

Re: Liam Jones

JJ should also give us some picks (not sure what).

Since Jones counts as a free agent I think he'd gonna offset any "compensation" we get from JJ.

[Bornadog]

Re: Liam Jones

Since Jones counts as a free agent I think he'd gonna offset any "compensation" we get from JJ.

Oh ok, I am not sure how it works

[soupman]

Re: Liam Jones

With the section i have highlighted though, I think it is the opposite. If the players were 'BETTER' then there is no problem with them being small, flanker types. Hell, Liam Baker is a small, flanker type and I think we'd find a spot for him...the problem is that the players are either not ready 'YET' or never will be.

And this goes back to my point re the draft. Caleb Daniel 'fell' to pick 46 because of his size. Those picks 3rd round and on...they ALL have fleas. They are too small, too slow, too outside, too one dimensional etc. You kind of have to pick your poison. I don't know how to say it but it is as if we select the same player over and over again...how are Butler, McNeil and Scott different from one another?? I guess Scott is a bit 'tougher' but...I mean, what unique AFL ready skill do they show? None of them can really 'nail' a spot because they just aren't quite ready 'YET'. Will they get there? Who knows...everyone is on their own development journey!

If we pick earlier, we have a better chance of finding a player who can come in and impact. Compare Darcy to Arthur Jones. One pick 2 - misses 6 months, but makes an immediate impact. Jones in the 40's...MILES off it. MILES!! Again - can Jones make it? Of course...but it's not going to be in 2023!

Earlier picks - particularly mid sizers and smalls - can come in and help. They cost NOTHING.

Agree.

Still think the types comes down to it though, we go for safe bets generally which are low reward good VFL types without elite AFL traits (ie. mostly undersized mids therefore flankers). I haven't done the analysis but to me it feels like with Dalrymple we tended to go with guys that had a/some AFL attributes but with major question marks over other parts of their game, post-Dal to me it seems like we have gone for guys with fewer weaknesses but fewer strengths.

Butler, McNeill and Scott are good examples in that they were all pretty close to the level required when drafted, but haven't really shown they can move beyond that level aside from looking more comfortable at AFL level. All three are just as likely to be picked in our best 22 now as they were when they first started with us.

I agree the better prospects are the higher picks but we aren't helping ourselves by looking for complete 6/10 guys with our many later picks instead of trying guys in positions of need that could be 3/10 or 8/10.

[Mofra]

Re: Liam Jones

Agree.

Still think the types comes down to it though, we go for safe bets generally which are low reward good VFL types without elite AFL traits (ie. mostly undersized mids therefore flankers). I haven't done the analysis but to me it feels like with Dalrymple we tended to go with guys that had a/some AFL attributes but with major question marks over other parts of their game, post-Dal to me it seems like we have gone for guys with fewer weaknesses but fewer strengths.

Butler, McNeill and Scott are good examples in that they were all pretty close to the level required when drafted, but haven't really shown they can move beyond that level aside from looking more comfortable at AFL level. All three are just as likely to be picked in our best 22 now as they were when they first started with us.

I agree the better prospects are the higher picks but we aren't helping ourselves by looking for complete 6/10 guys with our many later picks instead of trying guys in positions of need that could be 3/10 or 8/10.

I was just having a similar discussion on another, unnamed football based forum.
We lack a genuine small crumbing pressure forward... the type you don't really need a high draft pick to find, just looking at WA team lists:
Willie Rioli was pick 56, Zac Langdon pick 56, Liam Ryan a pick 26 but was drafted mature age, Isah Winder pick 57, Walters a pick 53, Frederick pick 61

We keep adding similar 'safe' types yet we could add a real 'something;' to the side by taking a chance with a late pick on the exact player we need. 50/50 to make it, but isn't that the case with late picks anyway? I really didn't think we take list needs into account enough with late picks, let alone rookie /PSD picks.

[hujsh]

Re: Liam Jones

Since Jones counts as a free agent I think he'd gonna offset any "compensation" we get from JJ.

Kinda BS if someone out of the game joining us on what must not be a high wage means any player we lost (lets say Bont) brings in no compensation. I wonder if the AFL will do that or just give Carlton a one off late pick to satisfy them?

Makes me very reluctant to bring Jones in if it means losing a decent pick (we need some IMO)

[Mofra]

Re: Liam Jones

Since Jones counts as a free agent I think he'd gonna offset any "compensation" we get from JJ.

I think JJ stays now Gold Coast have lured Ben Long there.