Discuss our teams list live with Lethal from 1.10pm

[hujsh]

Re: Discuss our teams list live with Lethal from 1.10pm

We had our opportunities in both games ... we kicked 7.11 against the Saints in '09 ... we kicked 7.12 against the Cats in '08 ... We kick straighter in both those games and we win

And you don't think that adding a new element to the forwardline might see us with 9.14 instead of 7.12?

You can use stats all you like but after watching this team all year and seeing guys like Hill raped by backmen like Glass I can't see the harm in adding to our forward structure.

I'm not saying don't go after Hall ... I think he is a good footballer (definitely trading up from Welsh who just retired) and I hope he plays extremely well for us ... what I am saying is that our forward structure has obviously worked when we have kicked the most goals for any AFL side this year ... BUT ... we need to look at how many goals are kicked against us and change that

Seems irrelevant to me. That would most likely involve changing our gameplan so instead of winning 115 to 90 we win 95 to 70.

[mighty_west]

Re: Discuss our teams list live with Lethal from 1.10pm

We had more scoring shots than the Saints ... we just couldn't kick straight ... if we had kicked 9.9 instead of 7.11, we would have won



That's a nothing statement ... you and I both know he broke his wrist two quarters after he clocked Staker ... he would have got six weeks regardless of the wrist. The fact of the matter is, he was unable to keep his cool.



We had our opportunities in both games ... we kicked 7.11 against the Saints in '09 ... we kicked 7.12 against the Cats in '08 ... We kick straighter in both those games and we win

A tall forward does not help you kick straighter ... look at Fevola this year ... he kicked 89 goals 57 points ... or Franklin in '08; he kicked 113 goals 88 points.






Clearly this is the problem ... a power forward is not going to change how many goals we have kicked against us; and seeing how we are already kicking more goals than any other side in the AFL, the discussion about the need for a power forward is moot.


I'm not saying don't go after Hall ... I think he is a good footballer (definitely trading up from Welsh who just retired) and I hope he plays extremely well for us ... what I am saying is that our forward structure has obviously worked when we have kicked the most goals for any AFL side this year ... BUT ... we need to look at how many goals are kicked against us and change that

What Hally will bring, not just the scoring goals part, but having a player of his ilk in the forward line, all of a sudden Joshy Hill isn't stuck one on one with the oppositions key defender, he also presents & gives our midfield a very good target, he doesn't need to win the Coleman or kick 80 plus to contribute, plus all those stats about how many goals he has kicked in the past few seasons, you can put alot of that down to the game style Sydney play and have played, and compare the amount of oportunities he will be given with our supply.

Unfortunatly when it comes to the bigger games, when our midfield is suffocated to a point of having a long option and not being allowed to pin point out smaller forwards, that can happen during the home & away against the weaker teams, they can pressure us for so long, but eventually get found out, the better teams won't allow that, playing Minson in that big forward role is a cop out for not having anyone else to create a contest or pluck a big grab when clearly he is just a ruckman, and a decent one at that, a true forward like Hall will know exactly where to run, and won't drop mark after mark.

So what will Barry Hall give us, a real forward that won't get pushed aside in contested situations, and has the height to contest with the better tall defenders.

[Scraggers]

Re: Discuss our teams list live with Lethal from 1.10pm

And you don't think that adding a new element to the forwardline might see us with 9.14 instead of 7.12?

You can use stats all you like but after watching this team all year and seeing guys like Hill raped by backmen like Glass I can't see the harm in adding to our forward structure.

If you read my post, I said that Hall is a step up from Welsh and I would welcome his skill to our forward line, but to answer your question, no.

It wasn't just Hill that got 'raped' (as you so eloquently put it) ... and if you will forgive me re-using another stat, we were ranked 10th for goals against (the Saints were ranked 1st)

You are intimating we keep our currnet game plan and bolster our forward line ... I am saying our forward line was ranked 1st in the AFL; its not our forward line that needs to change.

[Scraggers]

Re: Discuss our teams list live with Lethal from 1.10pm

What Hally will bring, not just the scoring goals part, but having a player of his ilk in the forward line, all of a sudden Joshy Hill isn't stuck one on one with the oppositions key defender, he also presents & gives our midfield a very good target, he doesn't need to win the Coleman or kick 80 plus to contribute, plus all those stats about how many goals he has kicked in the past few seasons, you can put alot of that down to the game style Sydney play and have played, and compare the amount of oportunities he will be given with our supply.

Unfortunatly when it comes to the bigger games, when our midfield is suffocated to a point of having a long option and not being allowed to pin point out smaller forwards, that can happen during the home & away against the weaker teams, they can pressure us for so long, but eventually get found out, the better teams won't allow that, playing Minson in that big forward role is a cop out for not having anyone else to create a contest or pluck a big grab when clearly he is just a ruckman, and a decent one at that, a true forward like Hall will know exactly where to run, and won't drop mark after mark.

So what will Barry Hall give us, a real forward that won't get pushed aside in contested situations, and has the height to contest with the better tall defenders.

I agree with a lot of what you (and Hujsh and Ozza) have said ... and I am not anti-Hall or the idea of a tall forward ... but to me, there are more important parts of our game that need strengthening before our forward line

[Sockeye Salmon]

Re: Discuss our teams list live with Lethal from 1.10pm

Clearly this is the problem ... a power forward is not going to change how many goals we have kicked against us; and seeing how we are already kicking more goals than any other side in the AFL, the discussion about the need for a power forward is moot.

Absolutely it will.

1. Hall will not get outmarked. If he doesn't mark it the ball will hit the ground, then it's up to our smaller guys to put enough pressure on so that it won't come back out in a hurry.

2. We can set up a more defensive game plan. ATM we have to get ahead of the ball because if we don't get time and space to hit up our small forwards we can't score. If we get ahead of the ball sometimes it doesn't pay off and we get burnt on the rebound.

3. Our mids don't help out our defenders enough because they've run forward at the 50/50 hoping we win it (see above).


I hate the way the media carry on about how good the St. Kilda backline are (and in previous years Sydney and Adelaide). It must be a cushy job being a defender when you have the other mob outnumbered. For those calling for Presti to be the AA FB, does he still get to have Maxwell stand on the other side of his opponent to help him out?

[Rocco Jones]

Re: Discuss our teams list live with Lethal from 1.10pm

Absolutely it will.

1. Hall will not get outmarked. If he doesn't mark it the ball will hit the ground, then it's up to our smaller guys to put enough pressure on so that it won't come back out in a hurry.

2. We can set up a more defensive game plan. ATM we have to get ahead of the ball because if we don't get time and space to hit up our small forwards we can't score. If we get ahead of the ball sometimes it doesn't pay off and we get burnt on the rebound.

3. Our mids don't help out our defenders enough because they've run forward at the 50/50 hoping we win it (see above).

Totally agree.

I have been saying that Hall will end up making us playing with a more defensive style. I find it amusing how fans attribute a sides for/against solely on his forwards/defenders. I think our backline is much stronger than our forward line but we play a more attacking style to compensate for the lack of a power forward. Our defence provides a lot more attack (Lake, Shaggy, Harbrow, Gilbee) than our forward line provides defensive pressure.

Hall will mean that our runners can spend more time back and our half forwards can spend more time pushing up the ground.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Discuss our teams list live with Lethal from 1.10pm

You are intimating we keep our currnet game plan and bolster our forward line ... I am saying our forward line was ranked 1st in the AFL; its not our forward line that needs to change.

Finals is a different kettle of fish. We've been found out in '06, '08 and '09 despite the statistics. In the Home & Away season, there's a lot more time to spot up targets. There's much more space to lead into. Finals footy is very different - especially the deeper you go.

Make no mistake about it, if we had a solid KPF v St. Kilda we would have won by 4-5 goals. We dominated all other areas of the game but we simply didn't have a forward half capable of putting on the scoreboard pressure required.

I agree with a lot of what you (and Hujsh and Ozza) have said ... and I am not anti-Hall or the idea of a tall forward ... but to me, there are more important parts of our game that need strengthening before our forward line

As other posters have suggested, a lot will be taken care of once the forward half is. The midfield won't have to run specifically hard one way with the hope of providing options in the forward half themselves. We should be able to implement a far more defensive game plan with a player of Hall's calibre in the side. Instead of running primarily forward, we're in a better position to help out the backs. Setting up from kick-ins, preparing for turn overs etc. will all be helped by a forward structure that doesn't always rely on precise kicking.

There's no doubt we have other areas that need to be improved. Desperate for a quality CHB, an outside runner + a small forward.

[Desipura]

Re: Discuss our teams list live with Lethal from 1.10pm

For those calling for Presti to be the AA FB, does he still get to have Maxwell stand on the other side of his opponent to help him out?

Who's Maxwell's opponent? Why is he not making Maxwell accountable?

[Sockeye Salmon]

Re: Discuss our teams list live with Lethal from 1.10pm

Who's Maxwell's opponent? Why is he not making Maxwell accountable?

Harry O'Brien's on him.

[azabob]

Re: Discuss our teams list live with Lethal from 1.10pm

Who's Maxwell's opponent? Why is he not making Maxwell accountable?

Harry O'Brien's on him.

It also comes down to ability to read the play and when to peel off your man. Lake does this so well. He showed this ability time and again all year and most recently against the Saints when he peeled off Kosi and help out Morris against Rewoldt in one way or another.

[Desipura]

Re: Discuss our teams list live with Lethal from 1.10pm

Harry O'Brien's on him.

Are there more backman in Colingwood's backline then opposition forwards?
If so, why do the opposition not push an extra man forward to make Maxwell acountable?
If not, why is he not hurting Collingwood on the scoreboard?

[azabob]

Re: Discuss our teams list live with Lethal from 1.10pm

2. We can set up a more defensive game plan. ATM we have to get ahead of the ball because if we don't get time and space to hit up our small forwards we can't score. If we get ahead of the ball sometimes it doesn't pay off and we get burnt on the rebound.

3. Our mids don't help out our defenders enough because they've run forward at the 50/50 hoping we win it (see above).


I hate the way the media carry on about how good the St. Kilda backline are (and in previous years Sydney and Adelaide). It must be a cushy job being a defender when you have the other mob outnumbered. For those calling for Presti to be the AA FB, does he still get to have Maxwell stand on the other side of his opponent to help him out?

Eade has said publically that he and the coaching staff decided a few years back that they would teach our defenders how to play one on one, obviously with the above game plan in mind.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Re: Discuss our teams list live with Lethal from 1.10pm

Are there more backman in Colingwood's backline then opposition forwards?
If so, why do the opposition not push an extra man forward to make Maxwell acountable?
If not, why is he not hurting Collingwood on the scoreboard?

Well, yes.

St.Kilda also will try to do anything to get free blokes behind the ball.


They drop a bloke back, you man him up.
They drop another one back, you man him up.
They drop another one back ... you get the picture.

All you end up with is a crowded forward line at your end and a very open one at their end.


Sometimes you might try to have your extra man in the midfield so every time the extra bloke in their backline gets it he has to kick it back to you.


All thiese things have been tried, sometimes they work, sometime they don't. What it almost always does, though, is make defenders look better than they really are.

[hujsh]

Re: Discuss our teams list live with Lethal from 1.10pm

It wasn't just Hill that got 'raped' (as you so eloquently put it)

Hence why i said "guys like Hill" with Hill being the most prominent victim and the West Coast match being a prime example.

You are intimating we keep our currnet game plan and bolster our forward line ... I am saying our forward line was ranked 1st in the AFL; its not our forward line that needs to change.

But aside from perhaps Williams the personel in our defensive half are all capable of playing their role. There isn't that much we can 'bolster' unless a good KP defender is on the market.

Also in the pressure of finals it hasn't been our defence that has let us down. In fact in 2008 they pretty much kept us in the game against Geelong.

[mighty_west]

Re: Discuss our teams list live with Lethal from 1.10pm

Also in the pressure of finals it hasn't been our defence that has let us down. In fact in 2008 they pretty much kept us in the game against Geelong.

Our pressure in the Prelim this year was sensational, and really, that has to be our standard, that is the bar we must set on a consistant basis to take that next step, if we do, all of a sudden, we stop the oppostion from scoring as much, that makes our defensive unit look alot better.

We missed alot of goals on the run, as we all know, i wonder how much of that was having worked so damn hard and having little petrol tickets left when taking those shots we normally kick with our eyes shut, having that power forward option can take alot of pressure off those guys.

The oppositons defenders are used to playing on tall OR power forwards, Johnno has been as much of a power forward as we have had, but lacked the height, so they won't have the extra loose "quality" defender to peel off, all of a sudden, with having Hall, Glass has to play tight on Hall and not zone off as much, i couldn't see Dawson taking Hall, so who from the Saints has to play tight on him? Scarlett also etc etc.

We all know how good Lake is when he is allowed to peel off and read the play, all of a sudden, oppositions won't have such luxuries against us as they have in the past.