Are we the real deal?

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  • Mantis
    Hall of Fame
    • Apr 2007
    • 15547

    #1

    Are we the real deal?

    We have shown over the past few years that we sit quite comfortably amongst the top 4 teams in the competition, but as of now we haven't been able to make the step up to the top 2 and really challenge for a the premiership we all desire.

    So as we sit awaiting the finals 5 weeks and then a finals campaign that will hopefully lead to the ultimate prize have we made the necessary changes to our game style and playing group to make this jump?

    What's working?

    * Clearances & contested ball wins:

    From being a team that was known as a bunch of front running downhill skiers ( we still are by the nuffies of the footy world) we are now a hard & formidable team when it comes to our contested ball winning ability and clearance work. Boyd, Cross and the Hudson/ Minson combo give us our in & under strength and are ably backed up by Ward & Gia. In Cooney & Griffen we have 2 of the best 'burst' players in the competition who use strength, speed & power to break clear of the clearance area.

    We have shown over the past few years and even more this year that we can match the best in this much important area, but as of right now it hasn't quite been enough, but we do know that we won't be bullied in this area.

    * Backline:

    One of Rodney Eade's great achievements within his time as coach has been the moulding of our defensive group. Thinking back to the period thru 2005-7 we really struggled in defence, but Eade allowed this group to grow and develop by plunging them into the deep end. Our defenders were forced to go one on one and were often out-sized and even out-skilled, but this 'tough love' has been paid back in spades with the group we now have.

    The group has now matured such that it contains 3 All Australians (Lake, Morris & Gilbee) and another 2 (Harbrow & Hargrave) who have been or are close to the mark. We have the 2nd best ranked defnce now in terms of points against and while some credit most go to our defensive structures, most is/ should be heaped upon our defence.

    Williams gives us some much need size and adds to our flexibility and in the past 5 or 6 weeks we have added Wood & Murphy to our defensive group which has been a great success. As well as adding excellent defensive skills they also add run, carry & creativity to the back half. We did look a little predictable with the way we released the ball from defence thru the first half of the season, but we now have great flexibility.


    What isn't?

    * Forward set-up:

    I am not convinced that our current forward set-up and the players within it (on current form) have what it takes to beat the high quality teams. With our team looking quite settled I believe the following forward set-up will be the one we will take into the finals:

    HF: Gia, Grant, Ward
    F: Higgins, Hall, Johnson

    Will this group kick us to a flag? I'm doubtful, here's why...

    - Not enough variety - Only Hall & Grant offer something different.
    - Higgins & Johnson are obviously struggling with their bodies and aren't playing the type of footy we expect (need?) from them. Both have issues with pace, ball use and defensive efforts.
    - We don't have enough players who can take overhead or one on one marks.
    - Opposing teams will sit on Hall, they know how good he is when has space... they won't allow us this luxury. While we can still rack up cricket like scores against the poor teams we do struggle to kick goals against the good teams and we do rely on Barry more so than any other player.

    How to fix? -

    - On current form not all of Johnson, Higgins & Gia can play - we need something different up forward. Hill is the obvious one as he has some unique abilities, but he needs to show he can compete with the best which he hasn't thus far. I guess it would be a big call to play him (or Everitt), but I think it's a risk we might have to take.
    - I believe in our current (or perhaps any other) set-up Grant is the key. He has genuine pace and if used cleverly by blocking for him he will be able to find space within our F50 and with his hands we know the ball will finish with him. A big call, but he is one player through physical characteristics who will be able to get separation from his opponent. His kicking for goal will be crucial as I have no doubt he will be presented with plenty of opportunities.
    - We must be daring with our use of Lake & Murphy up forward. We have seen all year that they make a real difference to our forward line. Murphy loves the space of the MCG and must be used wisely. Lake offers Hall some cover and will mean teams can't zone off which will be especially important against St.Kilda and Collingwood.

    I guess one important factor will be how we use the ball going forward, but one would think that the opposition will not allow a heap of quality ball going forward so that may mean lots of ground balls, etc so we need to be prepared and pick a team for that.

    * Defensive transition:

    Our ability to stop the opposition on the rebound is a great concern. Our current forwards as a group is pretty slow and they don't offer great offensive pressure. As recently as a few weeks back we were the worst ranked team in the competition for tackles inside F50... that's not good enough.

    Once the ball is cleared from this area we have a midfield group that generally is pretty poor at finding a man and pressuring the opposition to create a turnover. In a sense they are pretty unaccountable. Boyd, Cooney & Griffen seem lost in the transition from attack to defence and seem to mill around looking to guard space rather than to find a man. This may be a direct instruction, but the lack of real intensity they show in this part of the game isn't up to scratch. Cross generally for-goes hunting a man and heads back to defence to block up space for the oppositions forwards, but the out-numbering this creates in the middle means the ball travels further than it could if he was helping out.

    Our one saviour is Liam Picken who works (runs) just as hard in defence as he does in offence. He sets the example which I wish others would follow. He is a gem.

    We cannot allow the competitions big guns to have so much space thru the middle part of ground as it will place too much pressure on our defence. I have faith in our defence to hold steady, but they need more help from their team-mates further afield.

    What's been lacking in previous finals matches and games against the big guns:

    * Game-breakers:

    We need the likes of Cooney & Griffen to continue their rise and make September their own. Griffen has been a solid contributor in previous finals, but Cooney has been a little quiet, he needs to stamp his authority on September. Our other mid’s will need to work hard to ‘free’ these 2 up by blocking for them at the contested areas, these selfless acts will be important. Our other jet is Lake who's form is a given, but he will need to rise again as both our rock in defence and our pinch hitter going forward.

    * Win the key moments:

    Our team and especially our game-breakers need to win the key moments. Ablett, Chapman, Hodge, Franklin, Riewoldt & Hayes have all shown in the past that they can step up at crucial times to ensure their team wins finals. We have had no player stamp their authority in this way and that needs to change. (I have purposely left out Collingwood players as they are in the same boat as us)

    To ensure we win these key moments we will need our players to stick to our structures and game plans and especially concentrate when things get close. We can't afford to have past errors (think St.Kilda & Hawthorn clashes) rear their ugly heads as it can and has cost us close matches.... We need to be better than that.

    Where does that leave us?

    While it has been nice to get some confidence over the past 3 weeks with some comfortable wins (and we will probably have another one this week) I still feel there are some under-lying problems that could hold us back. These problems may be just in my imagination and we will step-up to the plate come finals time, but if they aren't I hope they have been noted and will be addressed sooner rather than later.

    We have shown the ability in the past week to make the tough (and correct) call. I hope we can, if needed, make a couple more as I think our season may depend upon it.
  • vho

    #2
    Re: Are we the real deal?

    Great read Mantis. There is no doubt we have the cattle on the park to win the premiership, i'm more concerned about the key moments you have mentioned. Good players perform during the H/A season, great players step up to another gear in the finals. I feel over the past few final campaigns we have matched the best in general play but really struggle to finish off with a goal, this i believe is our biggest issue. We need to seize the moment.

    Comment

    • Greystache
      WOOF Member
      • Dec 2009
      • 9775

      #3
      Re: Are we the real deal?

      Good analysis Mantis, have to say I agree with pretty much all of it.

      With the obvious added focus around our defensive structure and efforts, it seems strange that some members of our forward line can get away with putting in so little effort in that area.

      I agree we can't carry both Higgins and Johnson in the same forward line in a final, but who would the MC leave out if they had the courage to make the call? Johnson, who's been a serial failure in big finals, or Higgins who likes to fancy himself as a big game player but who's form has been terrible all season? I rather fancy they won't leave out either sadly.
      [COLOR="#FF0000"][B]Western Bulldogs:[/B][/COLOR] [COLOR="#0000CD"][B]We exist to win premierships[/B][/COLOR]

      Comment

      • ledge
        Hall of Fame
        • Dec 2007
        • 14551

        #4
        Re: Are we the real deal?

        Could Roughead help us out in the forward line at some stages do you think Mantis, my worry is Grant isnt quite taking those big grabs yet that we thought he would.
        I did notice against Freo (and it was mentioned in commentary) that with 3 talls up forward it was very hard to find match ups with the opposition.
        Also rotating Murphy and Lake up forward, depending on state of game of course.
        Its a very good post Mantis.
        I do think we have a team that can play in the wet or dry with a very good option on talls or smalls up forward and depending on which way Rodney decides to play against each opponent.
        My biggest worry is if we stop start, doing the kicking around the 50 metre arc up forward, to me that has been the sign we are in trouble with what to do.
        This has become a lot less a sight this year though I must say.
        Bring back the biff

        Comment

        • LostDoggy
          WOOF Member
          • Jan 2007
          • 8307

          #5
          Re: Are we the real deal?

          An outstanding Review, Mantis.

          Tugan Goalsneak suggested to me the other day that he would like to see Picken spend time at Halls feet because of his hardness at the contest and goal kicking nous.

          I agree this has some merit. He is the one who may provide real clout in this previously recognized area of need

          Comment

          • comrade
            Hall of Fame
            • Jun 2008
            • 18103

            #6
            Re: Are we the real deal?

            Yep, good stuff. The conference must be a ripper

            Here's what I wrote in response:


            It was a really good read. The reality of our team is that we're not blessed with quick forwards who pressure the opposition when they run it out of defence. Therefore our midfield does become critical in blocking up any run through the middle by CHASING, not just guarding space or moving back into the defensive 50 like as you pointed out Crossy does.

            The Collingwood midfield is a good example of a group that forces the opposition defence to cough the ball up by harrasing and tackling in the middle of the ground when they try to run it our - this usually leads to an inefficient entry into the Collingwood defensive 50 which gets picked off by the likes of Shaw, O'Brien etc. I'm not saying they're the benchmark or unbeatable, but it is one way they've definitely improved this year.

            In the end, it requires an attitude adjustment. If Boyd and co can switch on and force turn overs, it will lead to goals for us on the rebound. Most goals are scored from turnovers, so we need to generate more.

            The other thing you pointed out which is spot on are the number of forwards we have who are unable to be dangerous in a contest (and even worse when it hits the ground).

            Higgins has the scope to be a great overhead mark for his size and he's proven it before but he just looks like he has no faith in his body. Soft contact, falls to the ground - I even saw a one handed marking attempt late in the game against Freo. I know we might need to make a tough call on Johnno but if he stays purely in the forward 50, I think he can still be valuable with his footy smarts - and to be honest, I don't think the MC is prepared to put a line through him.

            I think Higgins may be the one who needs a spell, to see if Hill or someone else (probably not Jones, but he can take a grab and loves to chase) can step up and give that extra dimension to our forward line.

            I don't think Mitch Hahn adds anything we don't already have.

            Just one from left field - if Barry is getting sat on, Grant's not having an impact and the others can't take a mark, do we plonk Liam Picken square into it? He hasn't shown a great ability to clunk a mark, but he'll bring it to ground and then chase his arse off. He can also kick some sneaky goals, as we saw on the weekend. I know he's a critical component of our midfield but there may be times he can pinch hit with someone like Gia, who has looked good through the midfield and is harder than people give him credit for. Could change the dynamic of the forward line if we're struggling for options.

            Midfield accountability and one more dangerous forward. I think we can tweak our lineup to fix the deficiencies.

            The one thing we can only hope happens, is that someone pulls a massive performance when it counts. I think Griff has it in him, maybe not 4 quarters but at critical game-busting times. Cooney is the man that needs to say "boys, I'm the best player in this team and I'm making sure we win".

            Does he have it in him?
            Our 1954 premiership players are our heroes, and it has to be said that Charlie was their hero.

            Comment

            • Ghost Dog
              WOOF Member
              • May 2010
              • 9404

              #7
              Re: Are we the real deal?

              Great read. That stat about tackles inside our F50 is a real worry. Collingwood are a good example of a team that just locks it in and we saw that last weekend.

              The idea of putting Liam in the F50 is interesting. As he showed on Sunday, he's much more than just a 'tagger'.
              You don't develop courage by being happy in your relationships every day. You develop it by surviving difficult times and challenging adversity. ― Epicurus

              Comment

              • The Pie Man
                Coaching Staff
                • May 2008
                • 3505

                #8
                Re: Are we the real deal?

                Originally posted by Greystache
                Good analysis Mantis, have to say I agree with pretty much all of it.

                With the obvious added focus around our defensive structure and efforts, it seems strange that some members of our forward line can get away with putting in so little effort in that area.

                I agree we can't carry both Higgins and Johnson in the same forward line in a final, but who would the MC leave out if they had the courage to make the call? Johnson, who's been a serial failure in big finals, or Higgins who likes to fancy himself as a big game player but who's form has been terrible all season? I rather fancy they won't leave out either sadly.
                Not sure I agree with Johnson not performing in finals - for memory he was ok in last year's prelim...but it can be argued (and has rather well this week) that he's not the same player today that he was even 9 months ago.

                Same with Higgins - Chooseday night footy on Fox this week was round 9 last year vs Geelong*, and Higgins on a number of occassions really burst away from packs (and then late in the game aggravated his groin injury ) and he hasn't looked the same all season. I think I might be in the minority that thought he looked better than he had on Sunday, and one thing he hasn't lost is his capacity to nail a set shot.

                * on another note, the team looks a fair bit different today to that one

                Out : Callan, Hahn, Akermanis, Hill, Welsh, Eagleton, Minson
                In: Grant, Hall, Moles, Roughead, Murphy (was injured) Wood..can't think of the 7th

                Great thread and read Mantis - I share your concern re: forwardline pressure and how it will stand up in September. Hall's a massive improvement, but the supporting cast (outside of Grant) has declined....perhaps significantly. If Hill can find a competitive nature he maybe the wildcard, but I see our need is more of a Rioli type of crafty predator (Rioli being referenced as the ideal example) and I don't see Hill having the 'shimmy' for such a role...clean hands though.
                Float Along - Fill Your Lungs

                Comment

                • Mantis
                  Hall of Fame
                  • Apr 2007
                  • 15547

                  #9
                  Re: Are we the real deal?

                  Picken - up forward? - I think he is too valauble in his role as a run with player to contemplate this move. I guess if we find ourselves in the situation where he has no suitable match-up for even just 5 minutes it might be worth a shot.

                  Roughead - up forward? - Like Will, Roughy has shown an ability to take the odd big grab, but his kicking for goal isn't great and I don't see him as an option just yet.

                  Daring play vs stop/start - we will need to take risks to beat the good teams, no doubt, but these must be calculated and well constructed and when we do take a risk we must kick the ball to our advantage which will mean the ball must be in the hands of good ball users. It will do more harm than good to kick wildy, but if we see an opening we must take it.

                  Comment

                  • LostDoggy
                    WOOF Member
                    • Jan 2007
                    • 8307

                    #10
                    Re: Are we the real deal?

                    Originally posted by Mantis
                    Daring play vs stop/start - we will need to take risks to beat the good teams, no doubt, but these must be calculated and well constructed and when we do take a risk we must kick the ball to our advantage which will mean the ball must be in the hands of good ball users. It will do more harm than good to kick wildy, but if we see an opening we must take it.
                    It's a balance that we got wrong earlier in the year -- too much fear, too focussed on direct opponent, not enough options ahead of the ball -- but we've also gotten wrong the other way when getting into ill-advised shootouts (like in the past vs. Carlton). Since the break we look like we've gotten the balance right, and we look a heck of a lot better for it. We're not a naturally lock-it-in type of team, and have had to get bigger and stronger in the past few years to compete consistently, but our point of difference is quality getting forward and an ability to pile on goals quickly. Having fixed up our defence, and with the knowledge that we are a liability on the transition with our slow-as-treacle forwardline, we just have to score heavily when we get a chance, with timely scoreboard contributions from our dynamic midfielders (Griff, Coons) to stand a chance of winning. If we keep it close, we're always at a risk of leaking goals at inopportune times because of our defensive vulnerabilities in the forwardline and midfield (that you've covered well Mantis) -- just have to pile the goals on and kill games off when we are on top.

                    Comment

                    • Mantis
                      Hall of Fame
                      • Apr 2007
                      • 15547

                      #11
                      Re: Are we the real deal?

                      Originally posted by Lantern
                      It's a balance that we got wrong earlier in the year -- too much fear, too focussed on direct opponent, not enough options ahead of the ball -- but we've also gotten wrong the other way when getting into ill-advised shootouts (like in the past vs. Carlton). Since the break we look like we've gotten the balance right, and we look a heck of a lot better for it. We're not a naturally lock-it-in type of team, and have had to get bigger and stronger in the past few years to compete consistently, but our point of difference is quality getting forward and an ability to pile on goals quickly. Having fixed up our defence, and with the knowledge that we are a liability on the transition with our slow-as-treacle forwardline, we just have to score heavily when we get a chance, with timely scoreboard contributions from our dynamic midfielders (Griff, Coons) to stand a chance of winning. If we keep it close, we're always at a risk of leaking goals at inopportune times because of our defensive vulnerabilities in the forwardline and midfield (that you've covered well Mantis) -- just have to pile the goals on and kill games off when we are on top.
                      That's an important point and one I probably should have raised.

                      We have seen in our two recent clashes aginst St.Kilda in the in PF last year and in our clash earlier this year that we have enjoyed periods of domination in general play, but haven't made this count on the scoreboard.

                      When/ If we get periods where we hold sway we simply need to make the most of these opportunities.

                      Comment

                      • Greystache
                        WOOF Member
                        • Dec 2009
                        • 9775

                        #12
                        Re: Are we the real deal?

                        Originally posted by The Pie Man
                        Not sure I agree with Johnson not performing in finals - for memory he was ok in last year's prelim...but it can be argued (and has rather well this week) that he's not the same player today that he was even 9 months ago.
                        Sheer weight of numbers disagree, since 1994 Johnson has played 11 finals against top 4 teams, he's gathered more than 20 possessions only once, and has kicked 13 goals. A poor return from a club legend and captain. Sadly his time might have passed him by to have an impact in a big game unless he can pull something out of nowhere this year.
                        [COLOR="#FF0000"][B]Western Bulldogs:[/B][/COLOR] [COLOR="#0000CD"][B]We exist to win premierships[/B][/COLOR]

                        Comment

                        • Mofra
                          Hall of Fame
                          • Dec 2006
                          • 15116

                          #13
                          Re: Are we the real deal?

                          Completely agree with the call on Grant.
                          Geelong has lost to teams which have genuine pace in their F50 - their defence is rock solid but not overly quick. Grant is the one player who can use pure pace to break the defensive unit open and woul dbe a key to beating Geelong.

                          I also suspect against the Cats we would look to Cooney/Griffen to rest forward instead of on the bench, just because their burst speed will trouble the Cats defence. It may mean slightly less time in the centre, but if our "grunters' (Cross, Boyd, Moles, Ward) can break even in the middle, our A graders should be able to kick 2-3 goals between them which would be an enourmous boost.

                          I'd actually be willing to play Gia in the centre a little more (his work in close is brilliant) to play to one of his strengths a little more, and have a quick midfielder resting forward at times to give us the variety we need - and not just agaimnst the Cats. By rotating players through there (Murphy/Lake/Gilbee) at odd times during the game we can seize the initiative to keep our F50 functionign and keep the opposition defence out of their comfort zones. Seeing a Wood or Shaggy or Picken kick a goal or two would be a great result for us.
                          Western Bulldogs: 2016 Premiers

                          Comment

                          • Cyberdoggie
                            WOOF Member
                            • Jan 2007
                            • 2861

                            #14
                            Re: Are we the real deal?

                            Originally posted by ledge
                            Could Roughead help us out in the forward line at some stages do you think Mantis, my worry is Grant isnt quite taking those big grabs yet that we thought he would.
                            He will certainly add something different than the Minson and Hudson clones.
                            Jordan can take pack marks and has good skills by hand and foot, but he does lack experience and perhaps some size. Having said that though, Geelong, Hawthorn and StKilda and Collingwood don't have the best ruck fleet going around. Geelong can be strong with Ottens and Hawkins may provide something new but Blake is a dud.
                            The Hawks have nothing in Renouf and Skipper isn't much of a threat. The Saints main ruck is Gardner with King and McEvoy in support, They are certainly the stronger body ruck combo and Collingwood with Jolly are ok.
                            With that in mind i don't see that Roughead would be out of his depth with support from either Minson or Hudson. He showed against freo that he's a more than capable AFL ruck, with plenty of developement left in him.

                            If only he can learn to kick straight it could of been a rising star nomination for Jordan instead of Grant.



                            I agree with the Grant worry, we shouldnt' be relying on him yet, and unfortunately we seem to be running out of time to get the right player to play along side him in the future into the side, and that is Liam Jones. I think they will be a great combination for the future for us, unfortunately it's a little too early just yet.


                            So in summary, from Mantis's review, i think we all agree we need a cyril rioli in the forward line and a little more tackling pressure in the forward 50 and middle. Perhaps Moles, Ward and Picken will provide enough this year, and in the future the Sam Reid, Liberatore additions might ammend this.

                            I guess we will know where we are at with the changes we have made this year when we come up against Geelong soon.

                            Comment

                            • The Coon Dog
                              Bulldog Team of the Century
                              • Jan 2007
                              • 7579

                              #15
                              Re: Are we the real deal?

                              Great read Mantis & I have also enjoyed some of the other posts.

                              I think we all acknowledge that we're a top 4 team, but there are doubts about our ability to take the next step (& the one after).

                              As Mantis alluded to there have been instances where we have enjoyed periods of dominance, but not been able to convert on the scoreboard.

                              Why is that?

                              Have we been forced into bringing the ball into our forward line via the boundary & as a consequence find ourselves kicking set shot goals on tight/ish angles?

                              Are we rushing the shots on the run (pressure or inferred pressure)?

                              Is it a mental thing?

                              Scoreboard pressure kills the opposition's spirit & capacity to remain in the game.

                              We just need to nail each & every opportunity we get in the games that matter.
                              [COLOR="Red"][B][U][COLOR="Blue"]85, 92, 97, 98, 08, 09, 10... Break the curse![/COLOR][/U][/B][/COLOR]

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