Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

[FrediKanoute]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

I fully believe we were. If we had the injury list that the Pies had in the Prelim then we would have taken the Saints. Our side was hanging together by a thread and still led the Saints at half time. Picken had Goddard covered he only got on top when the two concussions finally took its toll and he had to go off. Again their Brilliant Blonde so called Match Winner had the luxury of playing on a man with broken bones. We have the best Full Back in the Comp who could hardly walk and finished on the bench. Addison and Wood had broken ribs. Murphy had half a knee left. All in all we had 8 players who required immediate surgury. The result was a mere 4 goals!

Take them injuries away add Cooney and believe me we win simple as that. I'll never agree with anyone who says the Saints were better last year. I dont care what happened throughout the year, we had them covered early in the year and they only snatched the win out of our own stupidity.

Is that a better explanation or am I still from outer space?

I'd say we were the third best side....the Catters were still better.

[Mantis]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

St Kilda, without too many big names but a do or die ethic have shown what it takes to get to the final.

St.Kilda's best players are better than our best players, especially in the 'big moments'. They are no more fierce at the ball or man than we are.

Collingwood got the most out of Brown, even Davis with the same demand / higher expectations of defensive and second efforts. 1 % ers.

Is that why Davis was dropped for the 2nd GF?

Brown did bugger all in the finals series except against us when he touched up Hahn.

You need a lot of things to go right to get to a final. Each play counts.
1st or 21st, it has to be ramped up in this area for us.

There has been nothing wrong with our effort over the past 3 finals series (except the 3QF's as explained by Sedat). We just haven't been good enough when it counts whether it be kicking the crucial goal or winning the vital clearance.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

They are no more fierce at the ball or man than we are.

With a few exceptions, don't agree. Check the tackle count.

Is that why Davis was dropped for the 2nd GF?

A grand final is the culmination of a season's effort. Bodies and minds pushing each other and competing for places, training as a team to to do a job. You can knock Davis for his finals but he laid many great tackles during the season. It sets a standard

Brown did bugger all in the finals series except against us when he touched up Hahn.

Same as above.

There has been nothing wrong with our effort over the past 3 finals series (except the 3QF's as explained by Sedat). We just haven't been good enough when it counts whether it be kicking the crucial goal or winning the vital clearance.

Haven't been noted for being a tackling powerhouse or lock down defensive unit like other top teams.

[Mantis]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

With a few exceptions, don't agree. Check the tackle count.

??

So they smashed us 79-49 in the tackle count in last years PF, did this win them the game? ... I don't believe it did and can think of a number of more valid reasons why we lost this game including carrying underdone & out of form players and skill errors (goal kicking especially).

A grand final is the culmination of a season's effort. Bodies and minds pushing each other and competing for places, training as a team to to do a job. You can knock Davis for his finals but he laid many great tackles during the season. It sets a standard

So why is it that a player who sets the standard is just about the worst performer in finals ever?

Davis while being a good performer in regular season games has never been able to reproduce this form in games that count and Collingwoods performances in big games have been worse for it.

Haven't been noted for being a tackling powerhouse or lock down defensive unit like other top teams.

Because we don't play this way per se, but we have shown we are capable of this when we change our plans and focus on playing a 'negative' style.

[Sedat]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

If the Saints had anyone useful to pick as the 19th, 20th & 21st players they would be the reigning premiers. Most clubs don't have too much seperating their top 10 players, it's the role players that can seperate teams.

People forget that St Kilda didn't lose the GF, even though they had a more than fair sprinkling of spuds in their team - in simple terms the bounce of one ball ultimately determined the end result of that match, irrespective of the number of Eddy's McQualter's and Peake's they had running around having precious little positive influence. To counter this, Collingwood didn't lose the GF either, and they had a far more even spread of talent accross the 22 players than St Kilda (and they then proceeded to beat up on the Saints the week after).

So I'm still undecided as to which camp I fall into - the superstars or the spread of talent winning you finals. What I do know is that none of our 'superstars' and influential players (with the notable exceptions of Griffen and Lake) have enhanced their reputations over time in finals, and some of them have had 11 chances to do so since 2006. I know it's harsh and I hate writing it, but it is very difficult to counter this argument.

[Mantis]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

So I'm still undecided as to which camp I fall into - the superstars or the spread of talent winning you finals. What I do know is that none of our 'superstars' and influential players (with the notable exceptions of Griffen and Lake) have enhanced their reputations over time in finals, and some of them have had 11 chances to do so since 2006. I know it's harsh and I hate writing it, but it is very difficult to counter this argument.

Sometimes the truth is harsh.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

??

So they smashed us 79-49 in the tackle count in last years PF, did this win them the game? ... I don't believe it did and can think of a number of more valid reasons why we lost this game including carrying underdone & out of form players and skill errors (goal kicking especially).



So why is it that a player who sets the standard is just about the worst performer in finals ever?

Davis while being a good performer in regular season games has never been able to reproduce this form in games that count and Collingwoods performances in big games have been worse for it.



Because we don't play this way per se, but we have shown we are capable of this when we change our plans and focus on playing a 'negative' style.

You make some good points and those I raised are minor. In general I was really proud of the way the boys carried themave selves through injury, illness. But, it is minor things that get you there in the end. It's that extra edge that alot of posters have alluded to on these forums. I don't know where you get it or how, but I suspect youth will bring it, deeper list so we can rest certain players, new leadership perhaps. settled foward line.

Cite their Half backs, blocking the man on the mark for eg. When talking about tackles, you can look at that across a season and get a little bit from it - across the season.

[Bornadog]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

You make some good points and those I raised are minor. In general I was really proud of the way the boys carried themave selves through injury, illness. But, it is minor things that get you there in the end. It's that extra edge that alot of posters have alluded to on these forums. I don't know where you get it or how, but I suspect youth will bring it, deeper list so we can rest certain players, new leadership perhaps.

Everything has to go right for you, especially injuries and fitness levels and a little luck as well.. You look at all the premiers over the years and basically they had their best team on the ground almost every week of the entire season.

In the 2009 prelim, we showed that we can match it with the best and an elemnt of luck robbed us in the end.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

for sure.

Luck is luck. You can only change what you can change.
My point is there were multiple rounds of ' not taking the game on' for various reasons and some that were not so clear in 2010
I think ( and hope) we won't see it in 2011 with so many changes.

[Mofra]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

More like players 12-18.

Touche'

The way the game is played and with the high rotation system teams will still employ, the "weakest" player on the ground is very important as the opposition will try to exploit any differential in ability, and arguably it's the one area we have an advantage over the Saints with (injury raveaged finals team notwithstanding).
It's an area we need to be smarter with, especially when we became predicatble last year for focussing on Bazza with our F50 entries.

[Sedat]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

In the 2009 prelim, we showed that we can match it with the best and an elemnt of luck robbed us in the end.

Totally agree, so why didn't we bring anywhere near that level of performance and intensity to the table 2 weeks prior and guaranteed ourselves a week off and a much weaker PF opponent?

[Bulldog Revolution]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

Everything has to go right for you, especially injuries and fitness levels and a little luck as well.. You look at all the premiers over the years and basically they had their best team on the ground almost every week of the entire season.

In the 2009 prelim, we showed that we can match it with the best and an elemnt of luck robbed us in the end.

That I agree with,

but the disappointing reality is that over the past three years we have not consistently been able to match it with St Kilda or Geelong, and last year Collingwood beat us three times comfortably.

We were the 4th best team in the competition but we did not eclipse Sydney by much, and in 2011 the Dockers, Crows, and Hawks will feel legitimate challengers to our top 4 status.

We need our best players to have more impact against the best teams. Its hard to think of any of our good players having played well against Geelong over the past 3 years.

[Topdog]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

In the 2009 prelim, we showed that we can match it with the best and an elemnt of luck robbed us in the end.

Was it just luck or was it also poor execution when the game was on the line and moments of stupidity?

I don't count those things as luck.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

Touche'

The way the game is played and with the high rotation system teams will still employ, the "weakest" player on the ground is very important as the opposition will try to exploit any differential in ability, and arguably it's the one area we have an advantage over the Saints with (injury raveaged finals team notwithstanding).
It's an area we need to be smarter with, especially when we became predicatble last year for focussing on Bazza with our F50 entries.

Exactly.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Expectations and all the guff that goes with it.

Was it just luck or was it also poor execution when the game was on the line and moments of stupidity?

I don't count those things as luck.

This.

Luck plays a part, but that word's getting tossed around far too much here. We weren't good enough - we had our chances, but couldn't do it. There's no excuses.

Even prior to injuries last year, we weren't good enough.