We need to talk about Liam

[Rocco Jones]

Pretty much everyon on the board seem to be of the view that Liam is really struggling short term but will be a valuable asset now. I think we need to look at 3 aspects of Liam at the moment. Confidence/long term development, form and value to the team/his replacement.

Confidence/long term development
I have seen posters calling for him to go back to Willy for confidence rather than not being up to it reasons, which I find understandable. I do however find dropping a guy (at the end of the day that's what it is) purely for confidence reasons a tad oxymoronic. No matter how you sweeten it, being dropped is a dent to the confidence. If he goes back and finds form at Willy, he will still come back with doubts because it's just not the same level. If he goes back to Willy and doesn't dominate, the monster just gets bigger.

Form
It's a real hard one. Fans are saying it's down but his stats are pretty much the same as last year. He is getting the ball kicked to him more often but he is also getting more attention from the opposition and no help from Hall. Just a look at the stats, almost identical.

Contested marks, his strength= top 10 like last season
Disposals= 0.7 per game up from last season
Goals= 0.05 per game up from last season
Tackles= 0.7 down

Incredible how close everything is. He has been such a consistently 1 goal, 4 marks and 10 disposals per game type of player. I think it's less about his form being down (as I have said, his form line is as consistent as it gets) and more about him just not being good enough yet to meet such high expectations/needs.

Value to the team/his replacement
Ideally we would be playing at least 1 more KP forward but aren't due to a lack of quality (rightly so IMO).

When thinking of his replacement we need to remember the player would go straight into the #1 KP forward role up against the likes of Glass and getting the ball bombed int rather than directed at him. Due to lack of (quality) tall team mates, he will also be strongly outnumbered most times. Sounds like fun.

It's a massive physical battle. While Jones is raw, I think he is a lot stronger/ready for that battle than the likes of Cordy, Panos and Hill.
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Basically I think the issue is less about Jones struggling as an individual and predominately about his role outweighing his talent at the moment. That will not change when he comes back from Willy and I think the inbalance will be even worse for the likes of Cordy, Panos and Hill.

As a sidenote, I think it's a massive case for playing mature bodied/minded guys to help support a kid's development. Along with Pia's stunning looks, it's paying the bills in the Miller household at the moment.

[Bornadog]

Re: We need to talk about Liam

I watched the replay this morning and also listened to Macca on SEN and have a different opinion on his form. He hardly received any passes on the chest. He made the best of his opportunities although he had a couple of shocking kicks at goal. I wouldn't be dropping him just yet. As Macca said Jones, Grant, Cordy and Roughead have to think about the next contest if they lose the first instead of dwelling on it.

[Rocco Jones]

Re: We need to talk about Liam

I watched the replay this morning and also listened to Macca on SEN and have a different opinion on his form. He hardly received any passes on the chest. He made the best of his opportunities although he had a couple of shocking kicks at goal. I wouldn't be dropping him just yet. As Macca said Jones, Grant, Cordy and Roughead have to think about the next contest if they lose the first instead of dwelling on it.

Do you mean a different opinion to me? Sorry if I didn't make my one clear enough but I totally agree with you.

[SonofScray]

Re: We need to talk about Liam

Good discussion. I am concerned that if we keep hammering him, he'll enact the play on words in the thread title and give new meaning to his role as a spearhead.

Keep him away from Willy is my gut feeling. Just checking that feeling against the fact his confidence looked shot last night.

[Bornadog]

Re: We need to talk about Liam

Do you mean a different opinion to me? Sorry if I didn't make my one clear enough but I totally agree with you.

No Rocco I agree with you. Should have said different opinion than some posters on other threads.

[whythelongface]

Re: We need to talk about Liam

Basically I think the issue is less about Jones struggling as an individual and predominately about his role outweighing his talent at the moment. .

Think you have nailed it with this line. We are expecting huge things from a 4th year KPP to take over the role that Hall had previously filled, that being our go to man and leading goal kicker. It is a huge expectation on a fellow who is still so raw and has so much development left in him.

We need to give him time to develop. It is pity we don't have another KPP that can take some of the pressure off him. I don't think sending him back to Willy will help his cause. I would rather he stay in the 1sts and see if he can gradually adapt to being the number one go to man.

[Sedat]

Re: We need to talk about Liam

Rocco, are you suggesting a strong bodied mature KPP from another club might be able to give a chop-out to Jones and actually help his development? Someone like a Schulz type maybe?

I like the idea but not a 1 season stop-gap (ie: the Chad). If there is someone out there who is under-utilised at their present club but can perform such a role, I'd be happy to look at them. I know I'm in the significant minority on woof, but Ed Barlow could have done a lot of the donkey work that Jones is currently forced to do.

[BulldogBelle]

Re: We need to talk about Liam

Basically I think the issue is less about Jones struggling as an individual and predominately about his role outweighing his talent at the moment.

I agree with your points Rocco and Bornadog and especially the succinctness of the sentence above. The only small change I would make (which I believe is a more accurate characterization of the the situation):
"Basically I think the issue is less about Jones struggling as an individual and predominately about his role outweighing his experience (rather than talent) at the moment.

I think he has enough talent already, but he needs to get the learning and experience up to be able to apply and enable his talent.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: We need to talk about Liam

Rocco, are you suggesting a strong bodied mature KPP from another club might be able to give a chop-out to Jones and actually help his development? Someone like a Schulz type maybe?

I like the idea but not a 1 season stop-gap (ie: the Chad). If there is someone out there who is under-utilised at their present club but can perform such a role, I'd be happy to look at them. I know I'm in the significant minority on woof, but Ed Barlow could have done a lot of the donkey work that Jones is currently forced to do.

Port Adelaide have some other guy called Chad this season. Are they all country and western fans down there or something??
Sedat, you are not alone. I though Barlow was worth holding on to.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Re: We need to talk about Liam

I not one for dropping him, but I would not play him unless he is 100% fit. If he has any soreness give him a rest. I think about Jones just like Tom Hawkins from Geelong, he had all the expectations and hype but just needed to get games into him. Unlike Hawkins we dont have an Ottens, Mooney JPod to help him out so he gets the best backman and always doubled team.

I saw him last night get on a good lead and the ball kicked well over his head, what concerned me was he looked up the ground with the #$@! he should just worry about his own game, thats were Gia, Cooney etc come in. they should get around him and just keep him focused, he has shown the ability to want to just keep presenting and we don't want that to drop away.

Interesting also, I'm hope that Chris Grant is spending time with him more that Shannon Grant (our forward coach) as he needs a key position trainer not a midfield crumbier IMO

[Rocco Jones]

Re: We need to talk about Liam

Rocco, are you suggesting a strong bodied mature KPP from another club might be able to give a chop-out to Jones and actually help his development? Someone like a Schulz type maybe?

I like the idea but not a 1 season stop-gap (ie: the Chad). If there is someone out there who is under-utilised at their present club but can perform such a role, I'd be happy to look at them. I know I'm in the significant minority on woof, but Ed Barlow could have done a lot of the donkey work that Jones is currently forced to do.

I wouldn't go for a 1 season stop-gap if it was primary to win more games unless we were a contender. I would look for a 1 season player if it would help look after a kid while he matures. You would want it to be short term anyway, 1 year of help beats nothing. That said, Chad probably isn't the type I would be looking at as he is mainly a defender at the moment and not the mature power forward looking after others type IMO.

"Basically I think the issue is less about Jones struggling as an individual and predominately about his role outweighing his experience (rather than talent) at the moment.

I think he has enough talent already, but he needs to get the learning and experience up to be able to apply and enable his talent.

That's what I meant. I guess I see experience as a part of talent but your correction makes it sound more articulate.

I not one for dropping him, but I would not play him unless he is 100% fit. If he has any soreness give him a rest.

I agree with that as long as it is a real rest rather than playing for Willy. I think that should be the case for all our kids.

[Sedat]

Re: We need to talk about Liam

Sedat, you are not alone. I though Barlow was worth holding on to.

He could have thrived under the McCartney game plan - tireless work ethic and would have provided a constant moving target for the bailout option whenever our mids were under pressure (just like Miller does at Richmond). Cheesy would hardly ever mark them but he would at least ensure the ball goes out of bounds to a neutral stoppage, instead of trampolining back towards the opposition forward 50

[G-Mo77]

Re: We need to talk about Liam

I'll copy and paste what I said in the game thread.

I've got complete faith in Liam Jones. Not many 21 year olds take the best defenders each week and are double or triple teamed. He doesn't have much help down there to relieve that pressure and he doesn't have a real crumbing forward at his feet. He'll get there when it's in place.

[Rocco Jones]

Re: We need to talk about Liam

I'll copy and paste what I said in the game thread.

I've got complete faith in Liam Jones. Not many 21 year olds take the best defenders each week and are double or triple teamed. He doesn't have much help down there to relieve that pressure and he doesn't have a real crumbing forward at his feet. He'll get there when it's in place.

That's the key there. So many fans seem to ignore the attention/lack of attention players get when rating them. What defenders they get on them, whether they have a tagger etc. It makes a world of difference.

For those wanting him gone just imagine it. Imagine Cordy/Panos/Hill up against the opposition's best defender with 1-2 others coming in as well! It would be the worst of inductions into the game as it gets.

[LostDoggy]

Re: We need to talk about Liam

As an alternative to having a hard body, would we achieve the same thing by playing two young talls? The opponent's "best defender" can still only go to one of them so either Liam or, say, Cordy or Panos, would get the second defender. With our current structure our only real avenue to goal is Gia's undersized footy smarts. Two mobile marking forwards, if they know where to run.. and its a big if.. may give defenders more to worry about and have the same impact as a harder body.

This whole debate is largely due to the slower than expected development of Grant anyway, or his unsuitability to the role he was recruited for.