Game Day 2012 - R9 Western Bulldogs vs Geelong

[comrade]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R9 Western Bulldogs vs Geelong

Could he come good later on perhaps as he still is only 21 or like you said comrade he won't amount to much.

I think he'll struggle to overcome his physical deficiencies. Not sure he's the hardest worker or most committed trainer.

It's a shame, as there is a spot for little blokes in our team. I think we should build our forward line around 3 big blokes who can bring the ball down to speedy, tackling oriented small men. Hoops isn't the answer.

[gohardorgohome]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R9 Western Bulldogs vs Geelong

Zeph has his own personal fan club behind aisle 20 cheering his every move when he was warming up on the bench. Loved their passion!!!

[Sockeye Salmon]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R9 Western Bulldogs vs Geelong

Fitness aside, Zephy looks lost, IMO. Some flashes of exciting stuff, but not up to it at the moment

This

[Eastdog]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R9 Western Bulldogs vs Geelong

What is positive for us is the youngsters that are coming through. This will hold us in good stead for the next few years. We are going ok right now with what we have and Macca is doing a good job.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R9 Western Bulldogs vs Geelong

I was going to start a thread called 'The False Promise of Contested Possessions', but thought I'd just write up some of my thoughts here.

I like that we're building our gamestyle around contested possessions, as, of course, getting your hands on the ball is a good start to winning a game of football. However, there is a bit of a false indicator in our contested stats at the moment. I've been mulling this over while watching teams like GWS and GC win the contested stats regularly while getting pummeled by 50 points. As recently as last year, GC beat us in the contested stats while we beat them by nearly 80 points.

Us winning the contested football is all well and good, but.. let's see if I can explain it properly. Recruiting exclusively hard-at-it inside players (like Smith) will win you the contested stats more often than not, but the second or third disposal is a problem, because the cut-price purely inside players are generally limited creatively. They may be able to get away a quick handball or two, but when it comes to hitting targets by foot, a lot of these types aren't particularly great at it. The difficult thing, which Geelong has been doing well for a long time, is to have their ball-winners like Gablett Jr, Selwood, Bartel, Corey et al also be elite ball-users, which is the holy grail of complete, all-round teams.

I mean, we've all been talking about adding an outside player or two to our midfield rotations. However, you can only ever play 18 guys at a time, so adding an exclusively outside player means removing an inside player, which will impact on our contested ability. Has anyone considered that maybe we're winning contested football because we're overloading the contested space with limited but game ball-winning beasts? Perhaps it's almost better to probably give up a bit of ground on the contested stats if you can get better return on your possessions? I'm seeing the best teams getting cheap goals from half-earned sequences of play while we keep winning the ball and turning it over.

I'm not saying Macca is wrong, or that I'm not enjoying our newfound attack on the football, but I don't think the answer is as simple as adding a good outside runner or two, but to actually get more players like Libba and Wallis -- good all-round players that can win their own ball but also have (potentially) elite disposal. Pure inside/outside players are luxuries I don't think teams can really afford in this day of tighter and tighter zones.

Just some thoughts -- sorry for hijacking the thread!

[gohardorgohome]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R9 Western Bulldogs vs Geelong

It pretty hard to execute wonderful skills if you don't have the ball in the first place or you can get it off the other team.

Win the ball first then use it wisely......

If you can't do both you won't be successful.....

[azabob]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R9 Western Bulldogs vs Geelong

I was going to start a thread called 'The False Promise of Contested Possessions',

Just some thoughts -- sorry for hijacking the thread!

I think a new thread could have been started. Interestingly Christ Scott I think pretty much admitted on radio this morning Geelong no longer think winning the contested ball is the be all and end all. In fact I don't think they have one the contested ball once this season. I actually asked the question some weeks ago is MCCartney coaching for how football is played now rather than in three years time? However if you can't get the footy there is not much point turning up, but as you say once you get the ball you must dispose of effectively.

Has finals footy ever been a non-contested, non physical game?

Lantern, what Bulldog list and game plan would you prefer of recent time? 2006, 2008-09, or 2012?

[Eastdog]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R9 Western Bulldogs vs Geelong

The game plan we had in 2009 was very good.

[azabob]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R9 Western Bulldogs vs Geelong

The game plan we had in 2009 was very good.

Game plan or players?

[AndrewP6]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R9 Western Bulldogs vs Geelong

It pretty hard to execute wonderful skills if you don't have the ball in the first place or you can get it off the other team.

Win the ball first then use it wisely......

If you can't do both you won't be successful.....

Sounds like us now...

[Dry Rot]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R9 Western Bulldogs vs Geelong

The game plan we had in 2009 was very good.

No, it wasn't.

Game plan or players?

Quite.

[Eastdog]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R9 Western Bulldogs vs Geelong

We had a lot of leg speed in the 2009 season which made us a fast team and hard to beat.

[Greystache]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R9 Western Bulldogs vs Geelong

We had a lot of leg speed in the 2009 season which made us a fast team and hard to beat.

No we didn't, we moved the ball on at all costs all the time. Our player's leg speed wasn't quick, but constant movement of the ball made us look quick. The problem was the game pan relied upon executing our skills efficiently all of the time or get burned on the rebound because all of our players were out of position by being offensive.

It worked well against mediocre teams, slaughtered teams full of kids, and constantly fell down against top teams, especially teams with good defence (Hawthorn 08, St Kilda 09, Collingwood 10), plus Geelong played a similar way but had a team with better skills. Having Brian Lake leading the AFL every year in intercept marks covered over a lot of the weaknesses in our game plan, but at the end of the day we lost something in the vicinity of 25 out of 30 games to other top 4 teams during that time, and 6 out out 6 finals.

Personally I'm glad our new coach is basing our new foundation around winning contested possession, as opposed to relying exclusively on everything going perfectly skills wise on a given day.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R9 Western Bulldogs vs Geelong

It pretty hard to execute wonderful skills if you don't have the ball in the first place or you can get it off the other team.

Win the ball first then use it wisely......

If you can't do both you won't be successful.....

You're absolutely right, but my point is that it's hard to find players who can both win the ball AND use it wisely with 'wonderful skills'. My point is that if you want pure ball extractors you can just get a whole team of Smiths and you will win the contested ball stats every single week but you won't be putting a whole lot of goals on the board -- which sounds a bit like us.

I don't want to overstate matters -- clearly Libba and Dahlhaus are both good users of the footy and can get their own ball. Griff as well, and Wallis looks promising.

I'm just saying that it's not as simple as adding skillful players to a contested side -- every time you add a more 'outside' type you're losing contested capacity.

To add 'wonderful skill' while maintaining our ability to win the contested stats will be a VERY tricky transition. Unless, of course, we'll develop a gameplan that doesn't rely on 'wonderful skill' at all, just well executed basics.

[MrMahatma]

Re: Game Day 2012 - R9 Western Bulldogs vs Geelong

I was going to start a thread called 'The False Promise of Contested Possessions', but thought I'd just write up some of my thoughts here.

I like that we're building our gamestyle around contested possessions, as, of course, getting your hands on the ball is a good start to winning a game of football. However, there is a bit of a false indicator in our contested stats at the moment. I've been mulling this over while watching teams like GWS and GC win the contested stats regularly while getting pummeled by 50 points. As recently as last year, GC beat us in the contested stats while we beat them by nearly 80 points.

Us winning the contested football is all well and good, but.. let's see if I can explain it properly. Recruiting exclusively hard-at-it inside players (like Smith) will win you the contested stats more often than not, but the second or third disposal is a problem, because the cut-price purely inside players are generally limited creatively. They may be able to get away a quick handball or two, but when it comes to hitting targets by foot, a lot of these types aren't particularly great at it. The difficult thing, which Geelong has been doing well for a long time, is to have their ball-winners like Gablett Jr, Selwood, Bartel, Corey et al also be elite ball-users, which is the holy grail of complete, all-round teams.

I mean, we've all been talking about adding an outside player or two to our midfield rotations. However, you can only ever play 18 guys at a time, so adding an exclusively outside player means removing an inside player, which will impact on our contested ability. Has anyone considered that maybe we're winning contested football because we're overloading the contested space with limited but game ball-winning beasts? Perhaps it's almost better to probably give up a bit of ground on the contested stats if you can get better return on your possessions? I'm seeing the best teams getting cheap goals from half-earned sequences of play while we keep winning the ball and turning it over.

I'm not saying Macca is wrong, or that I'm not enjoying our newfound attack on the football, but I don't think the answer is as simple as adding a good outside runner or two, but to actually get more players like Libba and Wallis -- good all-round players that can win their own ball but also have (potentially) elite disposal. Pure inside/outside players are luxuries I don't think teams can really afford in this day of tighter and tighter zones.

Just some thoughts -- sorry for hijacking the thread!

I don't think anyone's under the illusion that the 22 we play this week will win us the flag. All Macca can do is teach the blokes we have to do what he thinks is needed. The right mix of personnel will come.

If he can get Howard, Tutt, & Pearce all better at the contest, they'll still be good ball users. Just two of those have been regularly injured this year, and all are very young.

We have an OK mix on the list, not so much in the 22 but that will come with experience and coaching.

I also don't think Macca is suggesting we only focus on contested ball. He's mentioned in post game press conferences and interviews about guys learning when it's their turn to go and when we already have enough at the ball so their turn to spread.

The contested ball stat doesnt win the game, but it gets you started. We're trying to build a team to win a flag in the coming years, not just looking for a few more wins in 2012.