Jarrad Grant - was he ever a chance as a KPP?

[Scorlibo]

Re: Jarrad Grant - was he ever a chance as a KPP?

How many times are you going to ignore people saying he HAS played full forward at VFL level, and with the way VFL level works he's on numerous occasions been the sole target up forward.

How many times? I wasn't aware that I'd ignored anyone. There's no need for that tone, Greystache. I don't get to see the VFL every week, so I'll have to take you on your word that he has been given ample opportunity there as a marking target. The game I watched two weekends ago suggested that he was being played predominantly up the ground, delivering to inside 50 targets.

He wasn't able to have any impact, simple. He wasn't strong enough to hold out opponents, he didn't work hard enough to provide multiple leads and be a leading target, and he eventually resorted to standing in the goal square calling for the long bomb which his physically stronger opponent usually just brushed him aside in the marking dual.

Sounds pretty much like Jones every week in the AFL. What young KPF doesn't have this occur?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTzC3IeNT_g

If you watch that video I think you'll understand the difference between Grant then and now. The difference isn't that he's weaker in the contest now, there's still evidence of that even in his highlights video. The difference is that then he had the license, it was his role, to fly for the football. He knew he was the target and it was his job to clunk it. This doesn't happen now, the amount of times I've seen him wait down for crumbs at AFL level is ridiculous.

[Greystache]

Re: Jarrad Grant - was he ever a chance as a KPP?

Sounds pretty much like Jones every week in the AFL. What young KPF doesn't have this occur?

The difference is when Jones goes back down to VFL level he tears them apart. He IS the target you're saying Grant should be. Grant may want to be, Jones is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTzC3IeNT_g

If you watch that video I think you'll understand the difference between Grant then and now. The difference isn't that he's weaker in the contest now, there's still evidence of that even in his highlights video. The difference is that then he had the license, it was his role, to fly for the football. He knew he was the target and it was his job to clunk it. This doesn't happen now, the amount of times I've seen him wait down for crumbs at AFL level is ridiculous.

I've seen that video 100 times, kids playing kids.

Most of the kids in that video are probably playing D grade amateurs now. None of them are taller, stronger, or just as talented as Grant. The draft is littered with kids who couldn't step up to playing against evenly matched opponents.

[Scorlibo]

Re: Jarrad Grant - was he ever a chance as a KPP?

The difference is when Jones goes back down to VFL level he tears them apart. He IS the target you're saying Grant should be. Grant may want to be, Jones is.

I've seen that video 100 times, kids playing kids.

Most of the kids in that video are probably playing D grade amateurs now. None of them are taller, stronger, or just as talented as Grant. The draft is littered with kids who couldn't step up to playing against evenly matched opponents.

Using that logic you can't tell anything from a player's junior career.

Does Jones dominate VFL when he goes back there? I don't recall him receiving BOG or kicking massive bags. I would wager that Grant would clunk just as many and more grabs as Jones given the same opportunity. Saying that Jones IS the target is so premature. What has he done at AFL level realistically? He's been able to take some good grabs... on the wing! He's invariably disposed of the ball awkwardly, occasionally marked the ball inside 50 to everyone's (including his own) surprise, and, even more rare, kicked multiple goals. All this while knowing that so long as he keeps on 'trying' that his sub-10 disposal games will keep him holding down the most important position in our forward line. Grant has never even had a tiny sliver of this treatment and it's crap.

Sometimes it pays to accept responsibility for the failures of your own system, and that's what needs to be done at our club. First and easiest person to blame is the head recruiter, but the talent and confidence they come in with make up only half the story.

He's been named on a HFF for Williamstown.

[comrade]

Re: Jarrad Grant - was he ever a chance as a KPP?

KPP or not isn't the issue - it's the fact he never 'makes the play' at senior level, he's reactive.
It's one reason I see him primarily as a crumber - making opportunity after someone else was the target of an inside 50

Grant should look at Steve Milne as an example. To survive, he needs to buy in defensively and become that defensive, crumbing forward we desperately need. He doesn't need to be the main target, he doesn't need to kick big bags. If he can jag a few and lay multiple I50 tackles, he has done his job. He's more than fast and talented enough to fulfill this role. Is the attitude there?

Key forward is not his go.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Jarrad Grant - was he ever a chance as a KPP?

Good discussion.

I think some valid points have been raised. I've been a fan of Grant's from the start, for mine he has more talent than most of our list but unfortunately I don't think his mental application is where it needs to be and for this reason alone, he's struggling to make an impact.

[lemmon]

Re: Jarrad Grant - was he ever a chance as a KPP?

Good discussion.

I think some valid points have been raised. I've been a fan of Grant's from the start, for mine he has more talent than most of our list but unfortunately I don't think his mental application is where it needs to be and for this reason alone, he's struggling to make an impact.

Wish he could lift his running capacity (which I'm sure isn't solely physical), look at what a weapon Justin Westhoff has become for Port

[jeemak]

Re: Jarrad Grant - was he ever a chance as a KPP?

As we saw with Hall in the side, and some other supporting dangerous players for the opposition to man up on Grant can be an effective forward, providing the ball can be moved forward with reasonable precision and pace.

I gave up on him being a KPF pretty much as soon as I saw him play. Like I've said in another thread, his go will be playing as a third or fourth target capable of stretching the taller third string tall forwards for pace, or the second string medium sized forward for height and leap.

He definitely has a future in the game, and will in my mind be a useful forward for a side with a more complete forward structure than what we currently have. I fear we won't persevere with him for two or so years longer to await the side to be competent enough to use the ball effectively going forward, which is a condition upon which he will thrive.

He's the only player we have on our list that's kicked six goals in a game at the highest level, or ten at the second highest level.

It's easy to look at his effort, and in some ways that's fair enough. Though when your team's not very good, it can be bloody difficult playing the role Grant does, with the body he has. There's not many footballers of his type in the game, let alone footballers of his type that are consistent week in, week out.

[Greystache]

Re: Jarrad Grant - was he ever a chance as a KPP?

Using that logic you can't tell anything from a player's junior career.

Does Jones dominate VFL when he goes back there? I don't recall him receiving BOG or kicking massive bags. I would wager that Grant would clunk just as many and more grabs as Jones given the same opportunity. Saying that Jones IS the target is so premature. What has he done at AFL level realistically? He's been able to take some good grabs... on the wing! He's invariably disposed of the ball awkwardly, occasionally marked the ball inside 50 to everyone's (including his own) surprise, and, even more rare, kicked multiple goals. All this while knowing that so long as he keeps on 'trying' that his sub-10 disposal games will keep him holding down the most important position in our forward line. Grant has never even had a tiny sliver of this treatment and it's crap.

Sometimes it pays to accept responsibility for the failures of your own system, and that's what needs to be done at our club. First and easiest person to blame is the head recruiter, but the talent and confidence they come in with make up only half the story.

He's been named on a HFF for Williamstown.

I've seen them both play at Williamstown numerous times, I've seen where they've played, and how they've performed. You've admitted you haven't. but still you contradict me and tell me what's really happened. You're not looking to discuss the issue, you're looking to tell everyone how it is.

All you're looking to hear is Grant is superstar full forward that's waiting to explode if only someone smart enough was around to give him a go, and you're basing this all on a YouTube video of highlights from under 18's and where his name appears on the team sheet.

For at least the 3rd time. Grant has been given extended runs at full forward and doesn't look even close to being able to play that role, I can't possibly make that any clearer, I simply can't. The coaching staff are playing him in other roles to try to help him have an AFL career, if they weren't doing that he'd be back playing local football by now.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Jarrad Grant - was he ever a chance as a KPP?

I've seen a few clips of Grant in the VFL. I've seen him play at AFL level. I wish he would be what we want him to be, but I personally have seen no improvement from him. Jones, on the other hand. I have seen a slight improvement in his game. In that he is contesting, making some good leads, his kicking has improved slightly.

[1eyedog]

Re: Jarrad Grant - was he ever a chance as a KPP?

I've seen a few clips of Grant in the VFL. I've seen him play at AFL level. I wish he would be what we want him to be, but I personally have seen no improvement from him. Jones, on the other hand. I have seen a slight improvement in his game. In that he is contesting, making some good leads, his kicking has improved slightly.

I have not seen any improvement from Jones, actually there's a pretty good basis for me to argue that he has regressed from my visual observations. His most important lesson at this stage of his career is positioning and he simply has not grasped this.

[SonofScray]

Re: Jarrad Grant - was he ever a chance as a KPP?

Against popular opinion I feel that Grant can play, he has goal sense and tends to get on the board in the game he plays. I'm not sure we value that ability enough, or we overlook it because his physical profile doesn't match the perception of a white knight KPF.

He's a weird cat. Very laconic. Surly. Not the sort of traits our club and the fans find endearing. We like hard nosed, workman like, honest players of varying ability. He is none of those. Yet, from what I observed last year he was working on a stronger defensive game and a more physically robust attack on the ball. Some weeks the stats reflected it, others the effort either waned or went unrewarded.

Id like to see him end up playing that forward pocket role in a similar vein to Milne at the Saints. Provided the work rate is up and there is a target making something happen he an mop up quite well.

[Scorlibo]

Re: Jarrad Grant - was he ever a chance as a KPP?

I've seen them both play at Williamstown numerous times, I've seen where they've played, and how they've performed. You've admitted you haven't. but still you contradict me and tell me what's really happened. You're not looking to discuss the issue, you're looking to tell everyone how it is.

Greystache, just because my opinion contrasts with yours doesn't mean I'm not discussing the issue. You were the one who took the aggressive tone to start with and tried to shoot down the thread.

I don't have to have been at the game to know that:

- In the 4 times I could find Grant's name in the VFL teams in 2012 he was named at CHF, HFF, FP and HBF.
- This year he's been named on the HFF twice and on the bench once.
- He played the majority of the 2010 and 2011 seasons in the AFL, I've already given the stats for team names with his AFL career.
- Which leaves 2008 and 2009 as the years you must be referring to when he had ample opportunity to prove himself as the full forward! His first two years! Unless by 'extended runs at full forward' you mean that he was given a run there for a quarter every so often?

If we compare Jones to Grant at AFL level last year:

Jones played 12 games as a key forward. Grant played 13 games predominantly coming off the bench, occasionally being named as the sub.

Disposals: Jones 9.0, Grant 13.2
Marks: Jones 3.4, Grant 4.4
Goals: Jones 0.8, Grant 0.9
Tackles: Jones 1.6, Grant 2.5
Disposal Efficiency: Jones 58.9%, Grant 73.5%
Marks inside 50: Jones 1.0, Grant 0.8

If we compare their best years (Jones' 2011, Grant's 2010):

D: 9.8 vs 13.5
M: 4.8 vs 5.4
G: 1.0 vs 1.4
T: 1.9 vs 2.4
%: 60.2 vs 75.6
Mi50: 1.4 vs 1.6

The numbers speak for themselves - Grant has done more as a key target (still not much, admittedly), despite not being played as a key target.

All you're looking to hear is Grant is superstar full forward that's waiting to explode if only someone smart enough was around to give him a go, and you're basing this all on a YouTube video of highlights from under 18's and where his name appears on the team sheet.

No, I'm suggesting that Grant is now very, very unlikely to be anything, and I'm suggesting it's the fault of the club for not properly facilitating his development in the specialist position he was drafted for.

For at least the 3rd time. Grant has been given extended runs at full forward and doesn't look even close to being able to play that role, I can't possibly make that any clearer, I simply can't. The coaching staff are playing him in other roles to try to help him have an AFL career, if they weren't doing that he'd be back playing local football by now.

You tell me that I'm not discussing the issue and then come out with this? This is your opinion, Greystache, it's not fact - what I'm providing you with are facts, the fact that he has barely been named at FF in four years, the fact that in important key forward stats, he has outperformed Jones, despite not having played as a key forward. You can't expect everyone to bow down to you because you keep on bleating the same line.

[Greystache]

Re: Jarrad Grant - was he ever a chance as a KPP?

I don't have to have been at the game to know that:

- In the 4 times I could find Grant's name in the VFL teams in 2012 he was named at CHF, HFF, FP and HBF.
- This year he's been named on the HFF twice and on the bench once.

Honestly if you're basing everything you believe on where a player is named on a team sheet I can't be bothered spending any more time on this.

[westbulldog]

Re: Jarrad Grant - was he ever a chance as a KPP?

Grant has ability but perpetually looks disinterested a la Josh Hill. Trade.

[Scorlibo]

Re: Jarrad Grant - was he ever a chance as a KPP?

Honestly if you're basing everything you believe on where a player is named on a team sheet I can't be bothered spending any more time on this.

You honestly don't think that's important? Do you think Jack Riewoldt or Tom Hawkins became great AFL forwards because they were told by the coach, "we're going to play you on a HFF, but don't worry you'll get a run through FF/CHF at some point"? You have to show some faith and tell a player that the position's his.

FACT: Grant has been named once at full-forward in 50 outings for the bulldogs. I have seen every one of these matches. That's an accurate account of his time at FF, and an accurate account of the faith we've shown in him as a FF.

FACT: Since becoming a regular in the AFL side, when he's played VFL, he's been named elsewhere also.

I can't comment on whether or not he's been played at FF within games, I'll take you on your word that he has, but clearly not as much and with not as much preference as whichever bloke's been actually named as the FF!