2014 Game Day Round 7 - Essendon V Western Bulldogs

[Bornadog]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 7 - Essendon V Western Bulldogs

Hawthorn had Schoenmakers, Hale, Gunston and Roughy as the top goal kickers in their spread this week. I think that's the point. A top 5 pick, trades and good late first round pick. We need to draft well and trade well to be more like a successfully operating Hawthorn forward line.

I agree, we don't need anymore midfielders in the draft this year. I am really disappointed that in last years draft we didn't pick at least one tall, and I mean someone over 195cm. Maybe they weren't around, but no excuses in this years draft. WE also need to add another ruckman.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 7 - Essendon V Western Bulldogs

I agree, we don't need anymore midfielders in the draft this year. I am really disappointed that in last years draft we didn't pick at least one tall, and I mean someone over 195cm. Maybe they weren't around, but no excuses in this years draft. WE also need to add another ruckman.

I would have moved on Redpath and taken a punt, even if it was Jayden Foster. A top 4 pick this year can be justified on a tall. If some or all of the top line talls play well in the champs expect calls on the talls to gain momentum, much like Boyd going from likely top 1 pick, and then the messiah which every club should've traded for. I'd like to trade into the first round somehow too, especially if we have to use a low 20's pick on a father son.

[1eyedog]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 7 - Essendon V Western Bulldogs

Wait... you say that key forwards are merely role players, then talk of the 'stars" of the competition?


If you believe our forwardline is functioning well, that's not an opinion I share; if anyone offered us the chance to improve the forwardline with a player that is a big upgrade on what we have now, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

x2. Jack would make a big difference to us in more ways than just goals.

[1eyedog]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 7 - Essendon V Western Bulldogs

I agree, we don't need anymore midfielders in the draft this year. I am really disappointed that in last years draft we didn't pick at least one tall, and I mean someone over 195cm. Maybe they weren't around, but no excuses in this years draft. WE also need to add another ruckman.

After Boyd the best was McCarthy who is a superb contested mark. He went at 14 to GWS. This was a big surprise both because he lasted till 14 (draft watchers had him around Pick 10) and because GWS took him. They have seriously loaded up on KPP and will develop the best and seek to trade the rest for good mids / running backs.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 7 - Essendon V Western Bulldogs

I agree, we don't need anymore midfielders in the draft this year. I am really disappointed that in last years draft we didn't pick at least one tall, and I mean someone over 195cm. Maybe they weren't around, but no excuses in this years draft. WE also need to add another ruckman.

Peter Wright would be perfect for this! Pity he will most likely go no 1

[Scorlibo]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 7 - Essendon V Western Bulldogs

Wait... you say that key forwards are merely role players, then talk of the 'stars" of the competition?

If you believe our forwardline is functioning well, that's not an opinion I share; if anyone offered us the chance to improve the forwardline with a player that is a big upgrade on what we have now, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

I mentioned the stars of the competition because there are so few who play as key forwards.

The best players in the competition are midfielders. They have the most influence on games, and have done for some time. The key forwards vs midfielders argument has been had umpteen times on this forum and the most common line to emerge is 'you don't win premierships without a good key forward'. I agree that in nine out of ten cases, premiership teams have good key forwards:

2013: Franklin, Roughead
2012: Goodes, Reid
2011: Hawkins, Podsiadly
2010: Cloke, Dawes
2009: Mooney, Hawkins
2008: Franklin, Roughead
2007: Mooney, Ablett
2006: Hansen, Lynch
2005: Hall, O'Loughlin
2004: Tredrea, Thurstans

If we're splitting these guys into elite (top 20 player of the comp), quality (top 100) and good role players:

Elite - Franklin (2013, 2008), Roughead (2013), Goodes (2012), Hall (2005), Tredrea (2004) for a total of 6/20.
Quality - Hawkins (2011 - purely for his grand final), Podsiadly (2011), Cloke (2010), Mooney (2009, 2007), Roughead (2008), Lynch (2006), O'Loughlin (2005) for a total of 8/20.
Playing a role - Reid (2012), Dawes (2010), Hawkins (2009), Ablett (2007), Hansen (2006), Thurstans (2004) for a total of 6/20.

Compare this to key defenders:

2013: Lake, Gibson
2012: Richards, Grundy
2011: Taylor, Scarlett
2010: Reid, Brown
2009: Taylor, Scarlett
2008: Croad, Gilham
2007: Scarlett, Egan
2006: Glass, Hunter
2005: Barry, Bolton
2004: Cornes, Wakelin

Elite - Richards (2012), Scarlett (2009, 2007), Cornes (2004) for a total of 4/20.
Quality - Lake (2013), Gibson (2013), Grundy (2012), Taylor (2011, 2009), Scarlett (2011), Reid (2010), Croad (2008), Egan (2007), Glass (2006), Barry (2005), Bolton (2005), Wakelin (2004) for a total of 13/20.
Playing a Role - Brown (2010), Gilham (2008), Hunter (2006) for a total of 3/20.

Best three midfielders:

2013: Mitchell, Hodge, Lewis.
2012: Kennedy, Jack, Hannebery.
2011: Selwood, Bartel, Corey.
2010: Swan, Pendlebury, Ball.
2009: Selwood, Ablett, Corey.
2008: Mitchell, Hodge, Sewell.
2007: Ablett, Bartel, Corey.
2006: Cousins, Judd, Kerr.
2005: Bolton, Kirk, Goodes.
2004: Carr, K.Cornes, S.Burgoyne.

Elite - Mitchell (2013, 2008), Hodge (2013, 2008), Kennedy (2012), Jack (2012), Selwood (2011, 2009), Swan (2010), Pendlebury (2010), Ablett (2009, 2007), Corey (2009), Bartel (2007), Cousins (2006), Judd (2006), Kerr (2006) for a total of 17/30.
Quality - Lewis (2013), Hannebery (2012), Bartel (2011), Corey (2011, 2007), Sewell (2008), Bolton (2005), Kirk (2005), Goodes (2005), Carr (2004), Burgoyne (2004) for a total of 11/30.
Playing a Role - Ball (2010), Cornes (2004) for a total of 2/30.

You might disagree with a few of my placings but I think it demonstrates that you need good quality players everywhere on the ground.

Our forward line might not be functional but does that really mean we reduce the conversation to 'we just need a quality key forward - go trade for Patton or Riewoldt' again? We have a guy named Liam Jones who has played a couple of ripping games this year and a couple of stinkers but has shown enough to suggest that he can at least be a role player and produce the same output as any of the guys I listed in the role playing category for premiership sides. As for the other position, and as for the remainder of the forward line, I'm willing to be patient for the remainder of the season, see some players roll through there and see how the chemistry develops. We're a developing side and it's only logical that we have a developing forward line.

To summarise my frustration: you can't equate having a dysfunctional forward line with not having an elite key forward.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 7 - Essendon V Western Bulldogs

Nobody is saying the only thing you need is a KF. Of course you need options all over the ground, but it's pretty obvious our biggest weakness has been our complete lack of goal scoring options.

Jones might be able to be a role player in the mold of a Thurstans, Reid or Hansen - might - but one thing for certain is that unless we address this issue, we simply will not contend with the current cattle of forward options, no matter how great we think our midfield is/could be.

In 2009 (and really, 06-09) we had two of the best small-medium forwards the game has arguably ever seen in Johnson and Aker (40+ goals each wasn't it?) plus the likes of Murphy, Hahn, Robbins etc. who were all very capable players in their own right. We still didn't win it, or even make a Grand Final. Fact: we are not going to find two players equal or better than Johnson and Akermanis anytime soon.

We need a quality key forward (or two - depending how you rate Jones, Cordy, Campbell, Williams) for many, many reasons. One of them is yes, the fact that they score goals - goals are good, as Mofra said. They also take the pressure and focus off players like Crameri and Stringer (all other mediums included too).

If there was a chance we could land Jack Riewoldt (or an equivalent) and said "nah, he's not Australian of the year material" I would throw up.

Crameri, Dahlhaus, Hunter and possibly Stringer are a decent start moving forward but we're kidding ourselves if we think we can rely on Jones/Campbell/Williams/Cordy.

[josie]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 7 - Essendon V Western Bulldogs

The obsession with trying to win a premiership without a tall forward is equally baffling to the point you make BAD. Historically we are far, far more likely to win a premiership with one than not, we've tried winning without (decent) KPF's more than not and wished for them. I'm not interested in proving history wrong. Take the game just gone against Essendon, or the final minutes in 97 and 09, a serviceable KPF would be the difference. When the pressure of losing big games gets in the players head they seem to instinctively kick long. For us, they're not kicking long to a player who can mark it. If Roberts, Wiiliams, Redpath & Cordy are our stocks, we need to look at a KPF. I think this year we need to go tall early, should be a KP forward like McCartin for example or even KP forward/ruck, it's way too early to definitely pick, but Peter Wright from Calder could be an option as an example of often talked about names.


The end of 2015 Cooney retires, Boyd likely and maybe Bob. We take that $800,000 and ruthlessly prey on GWS KPFs like vulchers.

Time wise if were making a serious move up in 2016 our top pick in 2014 is 30+ games we've robbed a KPF with 4-6 years experience and the kids on our list are moving into their prime. But I think it's critical to move on list cloggers this year on both lists, and look for any trades in which we win with moving out some. Interesting to see what happens with potential dater sons too.

I agree with this ^^^ even though I do not know about the draft hopefuls you speak of (would love ot hear/see more).

I like the idea of buying in a gun KPF unless we are able to land a top draft pick KPF as it is seems so hit & miss with talls compared to midfielders.

I also think with loss of Murphy and Cooney in a few years, and even now, we could do with a bit more outside run and dash and skill. Hopefully some of the young ones we've got will fill these big shoes in a few years time. Let alone losing Morris in backline too.

I suppose every team is always trying to perfect their list asap (?except the yesteryear Dees?) and have a medium/long star replacement program.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 7 - Essendon V Western Bulldogs

I agree with this ^^^ even though I do not know about the draft hopefuls you speak of (would love ot hear/see more).

I like the idea of buying in a gun KPF unless we are able to land a top draft pick KPF as it is seems so hit & miss with talls compared to midfielders.

I also think with loss of Murphy and Cooney in a few years, and even now, we could do with a bit more outside run and dash and skill. Hopefully some of the young ones we've got will fill these big shoes in a few years time. Let alone losing Morris in backline too.

I suppose every team is always trying to perfect their list asap (?except the yesteryear Dees?) and have a medium/long star replacement program.

I see Hrovat or Dahl as taking over from current Cooney (not the brownlow version) for burst speed and decent foot skills. Higgins form at half back and good foot skills is as close to Bob as we can probably hope for. The salaries from these two & Boyd is significant, so let's call every tall forward and get into their thinking for trade period after next.

Defence, I like JJ and Higgins off the flanks if they stay fit for our next tilt. Roughy and Talia will hopefully both step up yet again. I'm hopefully for Zaine Cordy as a third tall defender with rebound potential in the next few years. Looking at GWS, Sydney, Melbourne & Hawthorn we need another tall defender which may or may not be Williams or anyone else tall now or traded in. Depth for the flanks is Fuller and Darley who we don't know enough about yet.

Our midfield looks solid too, but we need to fast track good kickers in Bont, Hrovat etc over some dodgy kickers like Boyd and Stevens.

On that, the plan as I set out sets out drafting and trading for KPFs to add to Jones & Campbell, with then Stew & Grant and then Honey and Hunter with others. Just need to address our ruckman issues.

[jeemak]

Re: 2014 Game Day Round 7 - Essendon V Western Bulldogs

We definitely need to draft a midfielder this year, as well as look at talls.

We are going to have all of Griffen, Cooney and Boyd retire over the next four or so years. We need to replace them through the draft now.