Austin elevated to senior list

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Austin elevated to senior list

Talia hasn't been in the mix all year and I think the MC has this right. Roberts was given a go and to me he didn't appear to be ready. Campbell is close, Cordy has made some minor improvement this year but we aren't playing well enough to carry them as a key forward when not being used in the ruck. Redpath or Austin was a flip of the coin which landed Austins way because I think we are backing Jones to get back into the senior side which limits Redpath and Austin offers us some flexibility for the back line.

I don't necessarily disagree with those comments, but what does this say about the ten names in my previous post? We recruited a gun talent developer and these 10+ young men have not developed this year. That's over 20% of the list treading water. It's unacceptable and promoting Austin does nothing in the worst case scenario, but in the best case scenario wallpapers over the cracks for another year. I don't see the benefit of elevating anyone at the stage and circumstances we find ourselves is.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Austin elevated to senior list

Well that is it for Redpath, his days are numbered. If ever there was a chance to for him to be elevated it was now.
I actually don't mind Austin but Redpath should have been given a go.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Re: Austin elevated to senior list

Talia hasn't been in the mix all year and I think the MC has this right. Roberts was given a go and to me he didn't appear to be ready. Campbell is close, Cordy has made some minor improvement this year but we aren't playing well enough to carry them as a key forward when not being used in the ruck. Redpath or Austin was a flip of the coin which landed Austins way because I think we are backing Jones to get back into the senior side which limits Redpath and Austin offers us some flexibility for the back line.

Well done G on a good analysis. It would seem that Austin will now take the Magpies resting ruckman and release Morris to play on an Elliott type.The choice of Austin has merit given his consistent form with Footscray and the need to give Roughead an extra tall to support him against Cloke. I find it a little strange as to how the MC has handled Austin but at age 25 he still has some upside to become a handy player. I would hope that with this selection that it might open the door for Murphy to go forward.
,

[GVGjr]

Re: Austin elevated to senior list

I don't necessarily disagree with those comments, but what does this say about the ten names in my previous post? We recruited a gun talent developer and these 10+ young men have not developed this year. That's over 20% of the list treading water. It's unacceptable and promoting Austin does nothing in the worst case scenario, but in the best case scenario wallpapers over the cracks for another year. I don't see the benefit of elevating anyone at the stage and circumstances we find ourselves is.

You seem determined to want to make Macca the focus on a number of discussions but to answer your question and the points you raise on this one what I think it says is:
- Young players take time and will occasionally have a set back.
- Some young players don't hear the message as quickly as others.
- Some players won't be promoted just for the sake of it. Hopefully that applies to all players

I've listed the reasons on the players you nominated but I'll try and clarify further.
- Cordy is a back up ruckman but Will is holding his spot. He has improved a bit but will never be a quality player. We have room on the list for him but we don't currently have a spot in the senior side.
- Campbell is spending a lot of time in the ruck and is far more productive there than as a forward. He is still learning his craft and deserves a spot on the list. I don't think we can play him as a forward for 100 minutes and in the ruck for 20 in the senior side.
- JJ hasn't been the same since he was injured last year. He will be given another crack at it soon. I still rate him and I don't think he has gone backwards more like he has stalled. He just needs to re focus.
- Roberts isn't ready but is better than he was 12 months ago. I'm not convinced he can make it as a 100 game player but we shouldn't be in a rush to drop him off the list.
- Talia has been disappointing and has gone backwards. Long term this might make him a better footballer.
- Wallis has been found out a bit by opposition sides. He has the same problems as 12 months back regarding his skills and fitness. I'm not sure we can improve his skills that much but we should be able to get him fitter. He has limitations but a terrific attitude.
- Tutt has progressed this year. He is not a natural footballer at this level though. He has decent pace and skills which are needed.

All of this can be salvaged I think it's far to early to question Macca's development credentials or methods. The form displayed by young players are bound to fluctuate.

[bulldogtragic]

Re: Austin elevated to senior list

You seem determined to want to make Macca the focus on a number of discussions but to answer your question and the points you raise on this one what I think it says is:
- Young players take time and will occasionally have a set back.
- Some young players don't hear the message as quickly as others.
- Some players won't be promoted just for the sake of it. Hopefully that applies to all players

I've listed the reasons on the players you nominated but I'll try and clarify further.
- Cordy is a back up ruckman but Will is holding his spot. He has improved a bit but will never be a quality player. We have room on the list for him but we don't currently have a spot in the senior side.
- Campbell is spending a lot of time in the ruck and is far more productive there than as a forward. He is still learning his craft and deserves a spot on the list. I don't think we can play him as a forward for 100 minutes and in the ruck for 20 in the senior side.
- JJ hasn't been the same since he was injured last year. He will be given another crack at it soon. I still rate him and I don't think he has gone backwards more like he has stalled. He just needs to re focus.
- Roberts isn't ready but is better than he was 12 months ago. I'm not convinced he can make it as a 100 game player but we shouldn't be in a rush to drop him off the list.
- Talia has been disappointing and has gone backwards. Long term this might make him a better footballer.
- Wallis has been found out a bit by opposition sides. He has the same problems as 12 months back regarding his skills and fitness. I'm not sure we can improve his skills that much but we should be able to get him fitter. He has limitations but a terrific attitude.
- Tutt has progressed this year. He is not a natural footballer at this level though. He has decent pace and skills which are needed.

All of this can be salvaged I think it's far to early to question Macca's development credentials or methods. The form displayed by young players are bound to fluctuate.

Perhaps I was unclear through referencing a previous post when discussing the current one. Macca has had a fantastic reputation, he has had, and continues to have with regard to player development. That was the reason for his appointment, I have no issue whatsoever with this fact.

What I'm asking, I think is reasonable, is what does the decision to elevate Austin possibly infer?

- does it infer Redpath isn't up to it?
- does it infer Talia and Roberts are not developing at the rate expected from last year?
- does it infer, if we need a second ruck helper through either Austin or Roughy, that Ayce & Campbell have not developed at the rate expected from last year?

Also:

- why did any player need elevating today?
- is it made for the long term view, or short term necessities?
- when the pressure of the media puts pressure on a club, more often than not decisions are made that would have ordinarily not been made, and sometimes the coach under the pressure does things ordinarily not done, especially recruitments. Therefore it's reasonable to assess the decision more broadly than 'yes or no'.


Macca is universally respected and lauded for his player development. But if his players are not developing and this thread is about elevating a player we thought not worthy of permanent elevation for 3 years and presumably playing for the rest of the year in lieu of those others, then surely player development and Macca as the head of that is narrative around such a decision. I didn't question his credentials, rather I accept them fully. His methods can be questioned now, I disagree. He's had nearly 3 years and over 50 games, I'm not talking about last week. Also the decision today is a glimpse into the immediate future in that Austin will be played, and if we are playing to a long goal I really don't see what this does for the team/club. I contend that it to me is:

A) Short sighted and a reflection that outside pressure is being felt and/or

B) Unnecessary and/or

C) An admission to some degree that numerous of Macca's players are not developing


I think those three contentions are not unreasonable, and being that Macca had part in the decision and is at the end of the day responsible for player development and that this decisions is IMO clearly not a vote of confidence in the main listed players then I think the conversation includes Macca. As for the sub strategy or other, these too are ideas and strategies of his. I'm not sure how any critical comment can be made of any depth without Macca being mentioned. To use a political metaphor, if there are questions about many aspects of a government, over a sustained period, it would be akin to saying the leader of the ruling party can't be mentioned or even questioned as to method, policy, strategy etc.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Austin elevated to senior list

I contend that it to me is:

A) Short sighted and a reflection that outside pressure is being felt and/or

B) Unnecessary and/or

C) An admission to some degree that numerous of Macca's players are not developing


I think those three contentions are not unreasonable, and being that Macca had part in the decision and is at the end of the day responsible for player development and that this decisions is IMO clearly not a vote of confidence in the main listed players then I think the conversation includes Macca. As for the sub strategy or other, these too are ideas and strategies of his. I'm not sure how any critical comment can be made of any depth without Macca being mentioned. To use a political metaphor, if there are questions about many aspects of a government, over a sustained period, it would be akin to saying the leader of the ruling party can't be mentioned or even questioned as to method, policy, strategy etc.

I think you are limiting the options a little. For instance, Macca could be prioritising the development of Talia, Campbell, Cordy, Redpath, Fletcher Roberts and the like by not playing them in the ones. And in a sense feeding Austin to the lions (or Pies) in order to free up Roughead to give Minson some much needed support and stop him breaking down completely.

Or he could have decided that a number of players listed above are not up to it and not worth wasting AFL game time on them. And if they aren't up to it then can you blame Macca's development? Face it Cordy has had injuries and was poor way before Macca got here. The only way to test this is if a player leaves us and kicks on elsewhere.

The list management at the end of this year will tell us a lot.

Just some food for thought.

And by the way Austin is a bit of a spud, but would rather he was cannon fodder than say Talia (was it Rocca, Cloke or Franklin who destroyed a young Zac Dawson and cost him a Hawks spot by wrecking his confidence?)

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Austin elevated to senior list

This has to be the most uninspiring selection of all time.

Finding it tough to even want to discuss anything dog-related. I know a few will raise the "then why post" line, and that's fair - but these types of decisions neither improve the present nor build us a brighter future, so I'm left feeling very, very flat.

Austin playing ahead of young key defenders simply doesn't wash well in my opinion. I know neither have set the world on fire but Austin is VFL standard, 25, and played enough footy for us to know he has no future. I often agree with a lot of what GVG says, but I couldn't disagree more with this. There's no logic to playing Austin - he will not improve us as a side now, or in two years. Talia/Roberts might.

If he plays forward, the same can be said for Campbell/Cordy and to a lesser degree Redpath - who whilst is coming from a long way back, would make sense to elevate given he's an unknown commodity that we've had training with us for three years. We still don't know if he can play - and I guess we'll just assume he can't and delist him at year's end now. Great management.

At least we'll be getting a top 4 draft pick.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Austin elevated to senior list

This has to be the most uninspiring selection of all time...
If he plays forward, the same can be said for Campbell/Cordy and to a lesser degree Redpath - who whilst is coming from a long way back, would make sense to elevate given he's an unknown commodity that we've had training with us for three years. We still don't know if he can play - and I guess we'll just assume he can't and delist him at year's end now. Great management.

At least we'll be getting a top 4 draft pick.

If none of the other backs are playing well in the VFL why do you think they will suddenly be AFL standard players?

In any case, while a spud, Austin from reports has been our best back so what does that say about the others?

I wouldn't be panicking, Austin is canon fodder to protect other players and allow them time to develop safely in the twos away from Cloke, Roughead, Franklin, Tippett, etc. Kind of like a nightwatchman.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Austin elevated to senior list

If none of the other backs are playing well in the VFL why do you think they will suddenly be AFL standard players?

In any case, while a spud, Austin from reports has been our best back so what does that say about the others?

I wouldn't be panicking, Austin is canon fodder to protect other players and allow them time to develop safely in the twos away from Cloke, Roughead, Franklin, Tippett, etc. Kind of like a nightwatchman.

Roberts (especially) has performed well at VFL level and I thought he was OK at AFL level. Talia hasn't starred but hasn't been beaten either, from all accounts.

This simply smacks of the MC trying to 'limit' the short term damage.

[lemmon]

Re: Austin elevated to senior list

Roberts (especially) has performed well at VFL level and I thought he was OK at AFL level. Talia hasn't starred but hasn't been beaten either, from all accounts.

This simply smacks of the MC trying to 'limit' the short term damage.

My sentiments as well. I liked the job Roberts did when he was played back in the seniors. I don't see what this move brings

[Bornadog]

Re: Austin elevated to senior list

Roberts (especially) has performed well at VFL level and I thought he was OK at AFL level. Talia hasn't starred but hasn't been beaten either, from all accounts.

This simply smacks of the MC trying to 'limit' the short term damage.

My sentiments as well. I liked the job Roberts did when he was played back in the seniors. I don't see what this move brings

What I don't get is Roberts was ok against Melbourne playing in the backline and then against Freo we stick him in the forward line against one of the strongest AFL backlines and then drop him. Why didn't he play in the backline that night?

I don't get it, its not as if we are a contender. I know he will develop in the VFL, then why in the hell was he elevated and dropped.

[Mofra]

Re: Austin elevated to senior list

- he's going to play in front of Talia, Young and Roberts

If he's performing better than the three of them, what's the issue in elevating him?

We should reward players for their form & effort, not gift games to players simply based on age.
Talia clearly has some issues to work on as per many comments here, if he is not hitting the benchmark required to play - he doesn't play.
All three have been dropped for poor form this year.

[Doc26]

Re: Austin elevated to senior list

What I don't get is Roberts was ok against Melbourne playing in the backline and then against Freo we stick him in the forward line against one of the strongest AFL backlines and then drop him. Why didn't he play in the backline that night?

I don't get it, its not as if we are a contender. I know he will develop in the VFL, then why in the hell was he elevated and dropped.

I agree. We should certainly have persevered with Fletcher and locked him into a position for the rest of the season.
As contradictory as it sounds I'm also not overly troubled by giving Austin another crack at it given that he has been as solid as any down back for Footscray this season.

In a season where we're not a viable finals proposition I'm comfortable with trialing those for a period of time until it is seen as a given that they are still far from the mark. With Howard & Goodes I've seen enough to understand where their future with us is now at; Talia, Cordy, Young and I dare say it Campbell, for different reasons, are not yet ready and should continue to be developed at Footscray.

[1eyedog]

Re: Austin elevated to senior list

We have absolutely no idea about what to do with the rotating circus that is Austin, Talia, Roberts and Williams. Now Jones is on the outer again...

[Bornadog]

Re: Austin elevated to senior list

I thought he held his own today, doesn't panick and won a few contests.