Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

[Bornadog]

Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

Of course we have been young by choice and continue to hide behind it. It is the most obvious obseravtion about the side and is backed by facts. Sure we've had some injuries, but when push comes to shove, we'd rather pick players with less than 5 games experience then pick our depth players WITH experience or mature bodies.

Who are these players you talk about? What facts do you talk about?

List of players with more than 100 games:

8	Trengove, Jackson	186	29yr 9mth	2 Nov 1990	197cm	97kg	Calder Cannons	Defender
1	Suckling, Matthew	177	32yr	25 Jul 1988	187cm	85kg	Wagga Tigers	Defender
10	Wood, Easton	168	30yr 11mth	4 Sep 1989	187cm	86kg	Camperdown	Defender
11	Macrae, Jackson	152	26yr	3 Aug 1994	191cm	85kg	Oakleigh Chargers	Midfield
3	Wallis, Mitchell	144	27yr 9mth	24 Oct 1992	186cm	85kg	Calder Cannons	Midfield Forward
21	Liberatore, Thomas	141	28yr 2mth	16 May 1992	183cm	83kg	Calder Cannons	Midfield
4	Bontempelli, Marcus	138	24yr 8mth	24 Nov 1995	193cm	93kg	Northern Knights	Midfield
39	Johannisen, Jason	137	27yr 9mth	8 Nov 1992	180cm	82kg	East Fremantle	Defender
15	Duryea, Taylor	132	29yr 3mth	24 Apr 1991	179cm	80kg	Murray Bushrangers	Defender
7	Hunter, Lachlan	131	25yr 7mth	13 Dec 1994	183cm	82kg	Western Jets	Midfield
17	Bruce, Josh	124	28yr 2mth	8 Jun 1992	197cm	101kg	Canberra	Forward
9	Crozier, Hayden	117	26yr 7mth	24 Dec 1993	185cm	79kg	Eastern Ranges	Defender
29	Dickson, Tory	113	32yr 10mth	26 Sep 1987	184cm	85kg	Bendigo Bombers	Forward
35	Daniel, Caleb	102	24yr 1mth	7 J

Who should be playing and is currently available?

[GVGjr]

Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

Of course we have been young by choice and continue to hide behind it. It is the most obvious obseravtion about the side and is backed by facts. Sure we've had some injuries, but when push comes to shove, we'd rather pick players with less than 5 games experience then pick our depth players WITH experience or mature bodies.

I don't think this helps us develop or build the list either.
Playing Lewis and Lachlan Young and the likes of Greene might have been better for the team

Why do you think we've gone down the option of picking the draftees rather than some of the other younger players?

[Bornadog]

Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

How about looking at the list above and telling me who are the guys that should be playing? There are only two players that haven't featured the whole season, Trengove (1 game) and Dickson.

Instead of posters having a go at the club for being young, tell me who are the players they wish to see who will not make us young.

50 to 100 game players:

22	Lloyd, Sam	87	30yr 5mth	3 Mar 1990	180cm	81kg	Frankston	Forward
16	McLean, Toby	86	24yr 6mth	31 Jan 1996	180cm	79kg	Oakleigh Chargers	Forward
12	Cordy, Zaine	81	23yr 9mth	27 Oct 1996	193cm	90kg	Geelong Falcons	Defender
5	Dunkley, Josh	71	23yr 7mth	9 Jan 1997	190cm	88kg	Gippsland Power	Midfield
46	Jong, Lin	64	27yr 2mth	4 Jun 1993	188cm	87kg	Oakleigh Chargers	Midfield
31	Dale, Bailey	58	24yr	22 Jul 1996	183cm	82kg	Dandenong Stingrays	Forward
13	Schache, Josh	56	22yr 11mth	21 Aug 1997	199cm	94kg	Murray Bushrangers	Forward
34	Williams, Bailey	52	22yr 10mth	10 Oct 1997	187cm	85kg	Glenelg	Defender
20	Richards, Ed	51	21yr 1mth	3 Jul 1999	185cm	79

All playing except Jong and Schache

I don't get why there is this commentary that we are purposely playing young players? We are picking players that are available.

If we play players in the last batch, ie 0 to 50, we will be even more inexperienced????

[Bornadog]

Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

Best 22 players -Hunter (131) Jong (64), Suckling (177) Duryea (132) have experience but are either injured or out due to other circumstances.

These are facts.

[Bulldog Joe]

Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

Best 22 players -Hunter (131) Jong (64), Suckling (177) Duryea (132) have experience but are either injured or out due to other circumstances.

These are facts.

It is also a fact that we have opted for a younger list.

For varying reasons we have moved on capable players in Hamling, Roughead, Dahlhaus and Stringer but kept players on the list that the coach wouldn't play such as Roberts and Campbell as well as the extraordinary time we have retained rookies like Roarke Smith and Brad Lynch as we did with Josh Prudden.

We could have picked up a delisted free agent like Ricky Henderson or Lachie Henderson instead of hanging on to some of those out of loyalty. There have been opportunities to add more experience, but we have chosen not to do so.

[Axe Man]

Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

I think it's pretty clear that we have chosen to be young through list management decisions.

Given the young list there has been little the selectors can do from week to week to increase the age and experience of the team.

[Ozza]

Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

Its not necessarily about players over 100 games experience. We all know there is more grey area to it BAD. Often it is about choosing the debutant off the back of no form rather than the 2-4 year player who is moved to no-man's land.

We acquired Schache, yet we choose not to play him. If he has one bad game, he is straight out, whereas others get countless chances to prove they don't cut it.

Lewis Young debuted in 2017 and played 7 games. In the following 3 years has played only 8 more games in total. Yet we choose to put Gardner in on the back of proving NOTHING, and looking completely at sea in each and every game.

Tory Dickson has seemingly vanished. But Gowers and Weightman are given 3 chances each. Why keep Tory on the list if players significantly inferior to him and this point in time are preferred. And what was the thinking around drafting a mature age player in Cavarra?

We went after Trengove, now have put a line through him because he doesn't cover the ground. I'm not a big fan, but against sides with very tall forwards, surely he should be getting considered on a horses for courses basis.

We're incredibly keen to rush in some debutants, by far less keen to stick with players in their 2-4 year range and get some continuity into them. But continuity is not really our thing this year clearly. Last year we were the 3rd highest scoring team in the league, and most of our big scores came after a sustained run where the forward line had some continuity as a group with Schache, Dickson, Dale, Naughton and Lloyd all there.

[soupman]

Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

Ozza's point is bang on and is what the numerous posts displaying frustration with a young selection bias mean.

It's a combination of our inability to develop players once on the list, a lack of valueing older role players, and a love for throwing the newest kids at the club into the mix.

[Bornadog]

Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

Given the young list there has been little the selectors can do from week to week to increase the age and experience of the team.

Agree

I think it's pretty clear that we have chosen to be young through list management decisions.

It is also a fact that we have opted for a younger list.

For varying reasons we have moved on capable players in Hamling, Roughead, Dahlhaus and Stringer but kept players on the list that the coach wouldn't play such as Roberts and Campbell as well as the extraordinary time we have retained rookies like Roarke Smith and Brad Lynch as we did with Josh Prudden.

We could have picked up a delisted free agent like Ricky Henderson or Lachie Henderson instead of hanging on to some of those out of loyalty. There have been opportunities to add more experience, but we have chosen not to do so.

We had a number of players either retired or delisted. The List manager has tried hard to bring in experience and over the last 4 odd years we have brought in Suckling, Duryea, Trengove, Lloyd, Bruce and Keath (mature not in games though).

My point is, we aren't trying to be heroes by picking the youngest team every week, it is just the make up we have ended with, and I really don't understand why posters keep harping on about it, or writing to Gerard complaining we are hiding behind it or making it an excuse. It is just a factor we are stuck with for now.

Team selection is a different issue see thread here

[Bornadog]

Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

Ozza's point is bang on and is what the numerous posts displaying frustration with a young selection bias mean.

It's a combination of our inability to develop players once on the list, a lack of valueing older role players, and a love for throwing the newest kids at the club into the mix.

But it is not a young selection bias, we don't have any experienced players like I laid out?

[Scorlibo]

Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

I understand your sentiment BAD, and thanks for laying out the (lack of) experience on the list, it's a stark reminder of our predicament. However the point that others are making I think is more a commentary on the progression of players between 0 and 50 games.

To this point I have reservations about our recruiting and development more than our list management.

The guys we've brought in from other clubs have largely served us well - Crozier, Suckling, Duryea, Keath, Lloyd have all I think been fine acquisitions in the right age bracket. Bruce can and will deliver more after getting his body right. Trengove I think deserves more games than he's getting but he's a very limited player and not the answer. Schache can still be a good AFL player but both he and the coaches need to understand his limitations.
Arguably we could have done more to hold onto Roughead, Dahlhaus and Stringer. Hamling we had no hope of keeping. Ditto Adams (injury cursed anyway). Then there's the early retirements of Smith, Redpath, Boyd and Biggs for different reasons out of our control. Overall I think list management in a trading sense gets a 'tick', given the circumstances.

As for recruiting from the drafts, we've done reasonably well with our higher picks in recent years, but our 'roughies' have delivered basically nothing consequential.

Collins, Lynch, Goetz, Lew Young, Greene, Mullenger-McHugh, Prudden (had the talent not the luck), Porter, Gowers, R. Smith, Gardner, Cavarra, Hayes, La. Young, Sweet.

There's still scope for some of the above players to 'make it', but it's not a great track record, and as always it's difficult to assess whether it's a development or recruiting issue. Clearly for me team selection has played some role in stimying some of these players. Lewis Young should 100% be selected ahead of Gardner, who is simply not capable at AFL level (we can all see it, why can't the MC?) Gowers on 2020 form is a liability and has taken games away from Cavarra and Greene, as has Weightman for little return himself.

I'd suggest that quite some number of these guys will be out the door at the end of the year, at the worst possible time, in a compromised draft year. From reports Ugle-Hagan can play but if I understand the bidding system correctly we'll have to shift all of our remaining picks to the back of the draft. That's a big price to pay for a player with no final year of junior footy.

Some interesting times ahead. I pin my hopes on the growth of Richards, English, Lipinski, McLean, Cordy, Dale, Vandermeer and West - all of them can play at AFL level but now need to take another step forward for us to improve.

[Bornadog]

Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

I understand your sentiment BAD, and thanks for laying out the (lack of) experience on the list, it's a stark reminder of our predicament. However the point that others are making I think is more a commentary on the progression of players between 0 and 50 games.

To this point I have reservations about our recruiting and development more than our list management.

The guys we've brought in from other clubs have largely served us well - Crozier, Suckling, Duryea, Keath, Lloyd have all I think been fine acquisitions in the right age bracket. Bruce can and will deliver more after getting his body right. Trengove I think deserves more games than he's getting but he's a very limited player and not the answer. Schache can still be a good AFL player but both he and the coaches need to understand his limitations.
Arguably we could have done more to hold onto Roughead, Dahlhaus and Stringer. Hamling we had no hope of keeping. Ditto Adams (injury cursed anyway). Then there's the early retirements of Smith, Redpath, Boyd and Biggs for different reasons out of our control. Overall I think list management in a trading sense gets a 'tick', given the circumstances.

As for recruiting from the drafts, we've done reasonably well with our higher picks in recent years, but our 'roughies' have delivered basically nothing consequential.

Collins, Lynch, Goetz, Lew Young, Greene, Mullenger-McHugh, Prudden (had the talent not the luck), Porter, Gowers, R. Smith, Gardner, Cavarra, Hayes, La. Young, Sweet.

There's still scope for some of the above players to 'make it', but it's not a great track record, and as always it's difficult to assess whether it's a development or recruiting issue. Clearly for me team selection has played some role in stimying some of these players. Lewis Young should 100% be selected ahead of Gardner, who is simply not capable at AFL level (we can all see it, why can't the MC?) Gowers on 2020 form is a liability and has taken games away from Cavarra and Greene, as has Weightman for little return himself.

I'd suggest that quite some number of these guys will be out the door at the end of the year, at the worst possible time, in a compromised draft year. From reports Ugle-Hagan can play but if I understand the bidding system correctly we'll have to shift all of our remaining picks to the back of the draft. That's a big price to pay for a player with no final year of junior footy.

Some interesting times ahead. I pin my hopes on the growth of Richards, English, Lipinski, McLean, Cordy, Dale, Vandermeer and West - all of them can play at AFL level but now need to take another step forward for us to improve.

Totally agree with you.

I don't believe recruiting has been as good as we think. Very difficult to get pick one wrong (has happened of course), but the speculative picks haven't been brilliant.

The discussion started off with the comments around we purposely want to look young every week and that is our excuse for losing and stop hiding behind it. Therefore I have proven we don't have the experience we would like.

However, the progress of the 0 to 50 is a concern.

33	Naughton, Aaron	46	20yr 8mth	30 Nov 1999	195cm	89kg	Peel Thunder	Forward
42	Keath, Alex	41	28yr 6mth	20 Jan 1992	197cm	93kg	Murray Bushrangers	Defender
27	Lipinski, Patrick	41	22yr	17 Jul 1998	187cm	84kg	Northern Knights	Midfield Forward
44	English, Timothy	40	23yr	10 Aug 1997	205cm	93kg	South Fremantle	Ruck
6	Smith, Bailey	34	19yr 8mth	7 Dec 2000	185cm	80kg	Sandringham Dragons	Midfield Forward
26	Gowers, Billy	33	24yr 2mth	10 Jun 1996	187cm	87kg	Oakleigh Chargers	Forward
37	Smith, Roarke R	18	23yr 11mth	11 Sep 1996	181cm	81kg	Calder Cannons	Midfield Forward
2	Young, Lewis	15	21yr 7mth	20 Dec 1998	197cm	96kg	Sturt	Defender
23	Vandermeer, Laitham	10	21yr 6mth	3 Feb 1999	180cm	77kg	Murray Bushrangers	Midfield Forward
32	Hayes, Will	9	25yr 2mth	5 Jun 1995	181cm	77kg	Footscray Vfl	Midfield
36	Lynch, Bradley	9	23yr 1mth	11 Jul 1997	187cm	79kg	Swan Districts	Defender
40	Young, Lachie R	8	21yr 4mth	6 Apr 1999	189cm	81kg	Mt Eliza Football Netball Club	Defender
14	West, Rhylee	6	20yr	12 Jul 2000	181cm	82kg	Calder Cannons	Forward
43	Gardner, Ryan R	5	23yr 2mth	1 Jun 1997	197cm	93kg	Burnie Dockers	Forward
30	Greene, Fergus	5	22yr 7mth	20 Dec 1997	187cm	75kg	Bendigo Pioneers	Forward
19	Weightman, Cody	3	19yr 6mth	15 Jan 2001	177cm	73kg	Dandenong Stingrays	Forward
18	Butler, Louis	2	18yr 11mth	26 Aug 2001	184cm	75kg	Sandringham Dragons	Defender Midfield
25	Cavarra, Ben	1	24yr 7mth	20 Dec 1995	173cm	72kg	Williamstown	Forward
28	Porter, Callum	1	21yr 5mth	22 Feb 1999	182cm	76kg	Gippsland Power	Midfield
38	Garcia, Riley	0	19yr 6mth	30 Jan 2001	177cm	70kg	Swan Districts	Midfield
24	Khamis, Buku R	0	20yr 4mth	24 Mar 2000	189cm	82kg	Western Jets	Defender
41	Sweet, Jordon R	0	22yr 6mth	2 Feb 1998	203cm	106kg	North Adelaide	Ruck

Hayes, Greene, Gardner, Gowers, Porter, Lynch are a worry. I still have hope for Lew Young, and there are some untried players there. Overall not a lot to worry about as we normally delist about 7 to 8 per year.

[Cyberdoggie]

Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

The problem with the side isn't age it's balance.

There is a reason when opposition sides get a run on we can't stop the momentum. We just have too many of the same type
of players/characters.

There are a number of players that Bevo loves for what they bring when we are rolling, but they don't offer much defensively.

ie Dale, McLean, JJ, Macrae, Lipinski, Daniel, Bont, Richards, as an example are all very much attacking players, but once the ball has left the contest, they aren't big chase down defensive players.

We get scored against way too easily on the rebound because we aren't prepared to work hard enough the other way to get the ball back.

I just think the balance isn't quite there at the moment, we are a couple of hard nuts through middle short. You can also add that Dunkley is not at his best since the recent injury, Bont isn't moving like he should, Smith is probably getting more attention and is having lean patch, same with English. Without our engine room at it's best, i think we have too many light bodied players that don't want to run hard defensively and this is exposing us.

Lin Jong is a great example. Earlier in the year he was throwing himself into contests and providing a defensive threat, adding pressure, and we were starting to play some good football that was enabling the creative players to shine.
We lose Dunkley and Jong who are 2 of our strongest bodied runners, and we bring in Dale, Lipinski, Lloyd effectively as replacements.

You can also add the poor selection of a 3rd defensive option at many times this year. Why we keep going for Gardner is beyond me. Not sure who thought he would be a better match up for Hipwood than either of the Youngs or even Khamis. Hipwood is a leading forward not a big marking one, yet we went for Gardner and he was lost at sea.

I don't think it's all doom and gloom however, we just need to adjust things a little to get ourselves back on track.

[Bornadog]

Re: Scratch match wrap | Dogs v Lions

The problem with the side isn't age it's balance.

There is a reason when opposition sides get a run on we can't stop the momentum. We just have too many of the same type
of players/characters.

There are a number of players that Bevo loves for what they bring when we are rolling, but they don't offer much defensively.

ie Dale, McLean, JJ, Macrae, Lipinski, Daniel, Bont, Richards, as an example are all very much attacking players, but once the ball has left the contest, they aren't big chase down defensive players.

We get scored against way too easily on the rebound because we aren't prepared to work hard enough the other way to get the ball back.

I just think the balance isn't quite there at the moment, we are a couple of hard nuts through middle short. You can also add that Dunkley is not at his best since the recent injury, Bont isn't moving like he should, Smith is probably getting more attention and is having lean patch, same with English. Without our engine room at it's best, i think we have too many light bodied players that don't want to run hard defensively and this is exposing us.

Lin Jong is a great example. Earlier in the year he was throwing himself into contests and providing a defensive threat, adding pressure, and we were starting to play some good football that was enabling the creative players to shine.
We lose Dunkley and Jong who are 2 of our strongest bodied runners, and we bring in Dale, Lipinski, Lloyd effectively as replacements.

You can also add the poor selection of a 3rd defensive option at many times this year. Why we keep going for Gardner is beyond me. Not sure who thought he would be a better match up for Hipwood than either of the Youngs or even Khamis. Hipwood is a leading forward not a big marking one, yet we went for Gardner and he was lost at sea.

I don't think it's all doom and gloom however, we just need to adjust things a little to get ourselves back on track.

Agree with all you have said.

Just a reminder, Buku is only 189cm, Hipwood is 204cm