Mike Sheahan Ready to Put Bontempelli on E.J's Level at the Western Bulldogs

[D Mitchell]

Re: Mike Sheahan Ready to Put Bontempelli on E.J's Level at the Western Bulldogs

Well...

I don't want to throw shade on the greats of our nation - and those two athletes are 100% in that category - but Elliot raced against 7 other caucasians in his most famous win (world record, Olympic final in Rome) and no athletes from Africa...things are quite different in modern times.

The Bradman arguments are a similar.

No doubt in their time they were peerless athletes. But at least some of that could be attributed to their time.

Ditto Ted and the Bont. They only competed against those within Australia, Ted within the southern states. African athletes competed in Rome, indeed, a Tunisian was in the 1500 metres. An Ethiopian won the Marathon, South Africa, Nigeria, Kenya, competed although Tanzania didn't, the African distance running nations. 1960 was pre globalisation, that, American University Athletics Scholarships, fast tracked citizenships in Europe, the universal rise in living standards, are all factors that have broadened the range of finalists. In 1960, only Europeans, a couple of North Americans, an African and an Australian reached the final of the 1500 metres. Elliott was the best miler/1500 metre runner in the world.

[EasternWest]

Re: Mike Sheahan Ready to Put Bontempelli on E.J's Level at the Western Bulldogs

sorry I thought we were talking Kelvin? my fault

I'm framing this.

[Bornadog]

Re: Mike Sheahan Ready to Put Bontempelli on E.J's Level at the Western Bulldogs

I'm framing this.

I better delete quickly

[mjp]

Re: Mike Sheahan Ready to Put Bontempelli on E.J's Level at the Western Bulldogs

Ditto Ted and the Bont. They only competed against those within Australia, Ted within the southern states. African athletes competed in Rome, indeed, a Tunisian was in the 1500 metres. An Ethiopian won the Marathon, South Africa, Nigeria, Kenya, competed although Tanzania didn't, the African distance running nations. 1960 was pre globalisation, that, American University Athletics Scholarships, fast tracked citizenships in Europe, the universal rise in living standards, are all factors that have broadened the range of finalists. In 1960, only Europeans, a couple of North Americans, an African and an Australian reached the final of the 1500 metres. Elliott was the best miler/1500 metre runner in the world.

I'm not arguing the bolded bit (or any of it to be fair). Though I did use my post as an excuse to rewatch the Elliot race in Rome (and Snell in the same event in Tokyo whilst I was there!) and certainly didn't pick out an athlete from Tunisia in the Rome race.

What I am saying is that comparing athletes based on achievements 60-years ago (Elliot) and 80-years ago (Bradman) with those today is simply not apples with apples as the environment has changed so much. In another 60-years we might be assessing the impact of Bont based on the socio-economic conditions of 2080 and the argument will again be flawed...

All we can do is appreciate the efforts of the greats in their time...trying to compare across eras - and in this case, across sports - is complete folly.

[azabob]

Re: Mike Sheahan Ready to Put Bontempelli on E.J's Level at the Western Bulldogs

Back in the 1950's, 1960's was there a stark difference between the HAVES and HAVE NOTS that we saw in the late 70's and 80's?

Or was everything pretty much on equal footing.

[Bulldog Joe]

Re: Mike Sheahan Ready to Put Bontempelli on E.J's Level at the Western Bulldogs

Back in the 1950's, 1960's was there a stark difference between the HAVES and HAVE NOTS that we saw in the late 70's and 80's?

Or was everything pretty much on equal footing.

I don't really know, but it would be pretty safe to assume that not everyone had an equal opportunity.

Results indicate a big advantage for Melbourne, but I would find it hard to believe that the cultural high ground at clubs like Carlton and Essendon wouldn't have had them at least trying their best to use any opportunity to cheat the system.

[D Mitchell]

Re: Mike Sheahan Ready to Put Bontempelli on E.J's Level at the Western Bulldogs

I found the following quote relating to a Tasmanian Family History Publication.

"Meanwhile, on 9 January 1960, at Sorrento, Victoria, Greg Blake became one of the few people to defeat Herb. Elliot, when he won a 1000 metre race in. 2.26.06 ..."

So that may have been at Sorrento while the 880 yd race was at North Hobart.

Pretty sure that 1000yd loss was the last time Elliott was defeated in his career.

The 1,000 metre would have been a training race. Elliott trained at Percy Cerruty's camp at Portsea, among sand dunes. Sorrento would have been at the Sorrento Oval, where every man and his dog trained over summer when on holidays, including AFL footballers, the Power boys (Luke and Sam) regulars in their day, holiday house 'round the corner. Decades ago, I did laps with an Olympic fencer.

[Ozza]

Re: Mike Sheahan Ready to Put Bontempelli on E.J's Level at the Western Bulldogs

Just going back to the Chris Grant and others comparisons...

Chris Grant was my absolute hero. I saw his entire career. I saw Johnson and West's entire careers also. Love all of them.

Bont is above all of these guys. Bont has been considered the best player in the league by most people for years now. I love Grant, but he was never considered the best player in the league for non-bulldogs supporters for any seasons really. Whereas pretty much everybody concedes Bont is the best, that he should win a brownlow etc.

The other thing is that Bont is an out an out match winner. He seizes the moment more than anybody else in our history.

I obviously didn't see EJ. So it is hard to compare. It would seem that EJ was considered the best in the league for a while too.
I'm not sure if EJ had the same quality around him or not - but of 20 seasons, EJ had 8 'winning' seasons, and played finals in 8 years.
Bont has had 8 'winning' seasons out of 11 and has already played more finals from 100 fewer games.
So I think Bont is stacking the record up in his favour.

I think if he adds another flag, it is irrefutable. If he wins a brownlow and/or multiple more AFL AA spots, an AFL MVP again and B&F;s...then it is headed that way too.

[Bornadog]

Re: Mike Sheahan Ready to Put Bontempelli on E.J's Level at the Western Bulldogs

Just going back to the Chris Grant and others comparisons...

Chris Grant was my absolute hero. I saw his entire career. I saw Johnson and West's entire careers also. Love all of them.

Bont is above all of these guys. Bont has been considered the best player in the league by most people for years now. I love Grant, but he was never considered the best player in the league for non-bulldogs supporters for any seasons really. Whereas pretty much everybody concedes Bont is the best, that he should win a brownlow etc.

The other thing is that Bont is an out an out match winner. He seizes the moment more than anybody else in our history.

I obviously didn't see EJ. So it is hard to compare. It would seem that EJ was considered the best in the league for a while too.
I'm not sure if EJ had the same quality around him or not - but of 20 seasons, EJ had 8 'winning' seasons, and played finals in 8 years.
Bont has had 8 'winning' seasons out of 11 and has already played more finals from 100 fewer games.
So I think Bont is stacking the record up in his favour.

I think if he adds another flag, it is irrefutable. If he wins a brownlow and/or multiple more AFL AA spots, an AFL MVP again and B&F;s...then it is headed that way too.

Great highlights here on clutch moments

[Ozza]

Re: Mike Sheahan Ready to Put Bontempelli on E.J's Level at the Western Bulldogs

To what degree does team performance come into the equation?
Ted and Doug only won 43% and 42% of the matches they played in (Bont 54%).

[Bornadog]

Re: Mike Sheahan Ready to Put Bontempelli on E.J's Level at the Western Bulldogs

To what degree does team performance come into the equation?
Ted and Doug only won 43% and 42% of the matches they played in (Bont 54%).

I don't think it should come into it as we are talking individual performance, but the media always bring up stuff like - he played in X amount of Premierships (when talking about the best).

I didn't really see Ted, but Doug was brilliant, especially in 1985. After his ACL, he slowed up a bit but was still an outstanding Champion.

For me, Bont has taken over Chris as my all time favourite and best player.

[Ozza]

Re: Mike Sheahan Ready to Put Bontempelli on E.J's Level at the Western Bulldogs

I don't think it should come into it as we are talking individual performance, but the media always bring up stuff like - he played in X amount of Premierships (when talking about the best).

I didn't really see Ted, but Doug was brilliant, especially in 1985. After his ACL, he slowed up a bit but was still an outstanding Champion.

For me, Bont has taken over Chris as my all time favourite and best player.

I think it has to come into it at least to a small degree - as an influential player can be the difference towards a winning culture, and even in the ability to get over the line in a close game.