Pre-Season Snapshot

[ratsmac]

Re: Pre-Season Snapshot

Brennan Stack is a different matter. I'm not sure he is good enough. He has some good attributes but as MJP said, he fumbles too easily which will limit him playing at AFL level. Harbrow excelled in this area across half back, but Harbrow also played this role well because he was one of a handful of players who went at 100% intensity 100% of the time. Stack lacks this intensity and unless it improves (which is hard, ask Josh Hill) I can't see him making it at AFL level, even if other attributes improve.

Please don't forget that Harbrow used to butcher the ball before he went to play at half back. I don't know why but the pressure to score goals can hinder some players for example Chris Grant, Harbrow, Chris Tarrent to name a few, and when they go back they seem to grow another leg. Harbrows kicking would of been a worry at the time of placing him in the back line, but he developed into a beautiful kicker of the ball without the forward pressure.

I know it maybe wishful thinking for stack to try fill Harbrow's shoes but what have we got to lose. I wouldn't write Stack off just yet, but totally agree that he has to improve dramatically to make it at the elite level.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Pre-Season Snapshot

Please don't forget that Harbrow used to butcher the ball before he went to play at half back. I don't know why but the pressure to score goals can hinder some players for example Chris Grant, Harbrow, Chris Tarrent to name a few, and when they go back they seem to grow another leg. Harbrows kicking would of been a worry at the time of placing him in the back line, but he developed into a beautiful kicker of the ball without the forward pressure.

I know it maybe wishful thinking for stack to try fill Harbrow's shoes but what have we got to lose. I wouldn't write Stack off just yet, but totally agree that he has to improve dramatically to make it at the elite level.

Agree - Stack nowhere near Harbrows intensity and hunger. Appreciate, some players look a bit laconic, but just their style. He does seem a bit overwhelmed by pressure in the firsts. How does he go in the seconds? stands out?



(Disagree on examples though.

Harbrow did not have enough time in the forward line to develop the confidence. watch out for him with the SUns
Tarrant? Grant?. Tarrant - leading scorer for pies 6 times? maybe more. Dockers had PAv, that's why they didn't need him. Had a poor year in forward, put down back.
Was Grant's kick worse than any other player's?)

[Desipura]

Re: Pre-Season Snapshot

Please don't forget that Harbrow used to butcher the ball before he went to play at half back. I don't know why but the pressure to score goals can hinder some players for example Chris Grant, Harbrow, Chris Tarrent to name a few, and when they go back they seem to grow another leg. Harbrows kicking would of been a worry at the time of placing him in the back line, but he developed into a beautiful kicker of the ball without the forward pressure.

I know it maybe wishful thinking for stack to try fill Harbrow's shoes but what have we got to lose. I wouldn't write Stack off just yet, but totally agree that he has to improve dramatically to make it at the elite level.

Good call, some players cant handle the responsibility/pressure of kicking goals. Harbrow however did not miss alot of goals, he just could not get in a position to kick them. Hard to compare a goalsneak to Grant & Tarrant who were/are kpp's and have more attention placed upon them because they are expected to (a) mark it and (b) kick the goal.

The great forwards love to kick goals and more importantly do it on a consistent basis.
As you say when they played down back, they dont have the same scrutiny and are able to use their other strengths of their game.

[soupman]

Re: Pre-Season Snapshot

Please don't forget that Harbrow used to butcher the ball before he went to play at half back. I don't know why but the pressure to score goals can hinder some players for example Chris Grant, Harbrow, Chris Tarrent to name a few, and when they go back they seem to grow another leg. Harbrows kicking would of been a worry at the time of placing him in the back line, but he developed into a beautiful kicker of the ball without the forward pressure.

I know it maybe wishful thinking for stack to try fill Harbrow's shoes but what have we got to lose. I wouldn't write Stack off just yet, but totally agree that he has to improve dramatically to make it at the elite level.

That's all well and good but I have no issues with his kicking and it won't be the thing that holds him back. Simply he lacks intensity and isn't clean, two things Harbrow excelled at. If he doesn't improve these areas he is going to be a liability at AFL level.

[Bulldog Joe]

Re: Pre-Season Snapshot

Realistically, neither are in the best 22.
Stack fades in and out of games (although rumours of him switching to HBF this pre-season may see his role changed), and Minson is a good no 1 ruck but not a good no 2 ruck - Roughy offers more forward which is likely to be a requirement given the new sub rule.

I see Minson in our best 22 and expect him to be way ahead of 2010 and in fact should produce career best form given his age and experience.

Roughead still has a lot of development to come, but our ruck options are the best we have had in a long time.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Pre-Season Snapshot

That's all well and good but I have no issues with his kicking and it won't be the thing that holds him back. Simply he lacks intensity and isn't clean, two things Harbrow excelled at. If he doesn't improve these areas he is going to be a liability at AFL level.

Opposition punish turnovers. Forward players need stellar defensive efforts. This is the reality.
Stack has not earned his spot for the above reasons.
Eg: Looks like a rabbit caught in the spotlight at times. So how to develop these qualities is the mil dol question.


There were several games last season where we persisted with out of form players ( Higgo ) or older list. Neeed to give younger list a run, chance to succceed on big stage ( IF showing a bit at Willy ) . Examples, Everitt / stack / Hill in 2010 The club seemed just a little too conservative with selections IMO for 2/3 of the season, then only when things went pear shaped, pulled rabbits like Hoops out of the hat.

Reality is, getting clean Hands, skills like Harbrow's come with the package. If players don't have it now, maybe a long time waiting. Mentor? Will be great to have Zeph there with him. Seems he has big appetite.

[Bornadog]

Re: Pre-Season Snapshot

Agree - Stack nowhere near Harbrows intensity and hunger. Appreciate, some players look a bit laconic, but just their style. He does seem a bit overwhelmed by pressure in the firsts. How does he go in the seconds? stands out?



(Disagree on examples though.

Harbrow did not have enough time in the forward line to develop the confidence. watch out for him with the SUns
Tarrant? Grant?. Tarrant - leading scorer for pies 6 times? maybe more. Dockers had PAv, that's why they didn't need him. Had a poor year in forward, put down back.
Was Grant's kick worse than any other player's?)

Harbrow's kicking efficiency was woeful, both in the forward line and in the backline. Many times did some great things ducking and weaving only to just slam the ball on his foot to no one. Worse than Hargrave.

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Pre-Season Snapshot

Harbrow's kicking efficiency was woeful, both in the forward line and in the backline. Many times did some great things ducking and weaving only to just slam the ball on his foot to no one. Worse than Hargrave.

Agreed. But Decision making or skills? IMO his decision making was woeful, not his ability to nail a target. - he hit some absolute bullet passes during the season, then other times, as you say.. hail mary. Anyway. Suns can worry about it now.

[soupman]

Re: Pre-Season Snapshot

Agreed. But Decision making or skills? IMO his decision making was woeful, not his ability to nail a target. - he hit some absolute bullet passes during the season, then other times, as you say.. hail mary. Anyway. Suns can worry about it now.

Harbrow's kicking was only bad when he was running out of the backline, and this was because after picking up the ball in a contest, evading one player, bouncing it twice, shrugging a tackle and finally looking up our forwards were all out of position and he was buggered, meaning it generally was a kick to a 50-50 that didn't quite go where intended.

[ratsmac]

Re: Pre-Season Snapshot

(Disagree on examples though.

Harbrow did not have enough time in the forward line to develop the confidence. watch out for him with the SUns
Tarrant? Grant?. Tarrant - leading scorer for pies 6 times? maybe more. Dockers had PAv, that's why they didn't need him. Had a poor year in forward, put down back.
Was Grant's kick worse than any other player's?)

Sorry your right about these examples but I wasn't meaning to say they were bad players (Especially Grant, he is still my fav of all time) But for a time as you stated with Tarrant, they had bad seasons and putting them back, including Harbrow, released a lot of pressure off them and hence their confidence grew along with the quality of disposal. Although Grants field kicking was up there with the very best, it was when he was having the "yips" as they say in front of goal is what I am talking about. Tarrant may have been their leading goal scorer, but he was struggling for a couple of seasons so that's why they traded him. Pav plays at CHF and Tarrant was a FF, so they did need him up forward, he was just giving them nothing.

[mjp]

Re: Pre-Season Snapshot

Pav plays at CHF and Tarrant was a FF, so they did need him up forward, he was just giving them nothing.

No.

Tarrant came to Freo as a CHF and his strength has always been his ability to operate as a lead up player. Pav plays the patented Jon Brown / Barry Hall Centre-half Full Forward position.

Freo set up a scenario whereby Pavlich and Tarrant would alternate between the high role and the deep role...it didn't really work for either of them but they stuck with it. Then McPharlin got injured, they threw Tarrant back (in desperation) and got lucky. To their credit, they persisted with him as a defender after McPharlin's return and ended up with two good key backs.

All this talk about more pressure on players kicking on goal versus kicking out of the backline - honestly. Have you seen the zones that defenders have to try and pick their way through today? Any time they miss that falls into the clanger category, and I guarantee would be brought up at their weekly review with their line coach.

Forwards missing goals? Different mentality but most of the pressure to succeed is internal rather than external...probably 40% of shots on goal are 'free shots' anyway (from the boundary, difficult angle etc) where you are essentially 'allowed' to miss, by fans, coaches, team-mates. It is only the simple ones (45 degree arc, inside 40m) that you will get much criticism for...

[Pedro Sanchez]

Re: Pre-Season Snapshot

The bottom line is I and I'm guessing many fans and posters were very happy to pay money to watch Harbrow play - regardless if he butchered the ball a tad now and again. Not saying you guys are having an overly critical look at a past player, but just wanted to affirm my pleasure for watching a zippy and tough back pocket.

All the best at GC h-brow!

[Ghost Dog]

Re: Pre-Season Snapshot

You can love a player and still be critical of certain aspects of his play. And certainly not pooh poohing his move to QLD. Good on him. I'd do the same if my family , gal-f were far yonder.
Yes, certainly remains one of my personal fav past Bulldogs. I don't think he was a bad kick, just seemed to bomb it a great deal but eh, who was on the lead? knew not I have the time. Lost my jobby last year - I watched a lot of games on the idot box -- hard to be a good judge of general play on the tube.

[ratsmac]

Re: Pre-Season Snapshot

No.

Tarrant came to Freo as a CHF and his strength has always been his ability to operate as a lead up player. Pav plays the patented Jon Brown / Barry Hall Centre-half Full Forward position.

Freo set up a scenario whereby Pavlich and Tarrant would alternate between the high role and the deep role...it didn't really work for either of them but they stuck with it. Then McPharlin got injured, they threw Tarrant back (in desperation) and got lucky. To their credit, they persisted with him as a defender after McPharlin's return and ended up with two good key backs.

All this talk about more pressure on players kicking on goal versus kicking out of the backline - honestly. Have you seen the zones that defenders have to try and pick their way through today? Any time they miss that falls into the clanger category, and I guarantee would be brought up at their weekly review with their line coach.

Yes.

My point is that Tarrant was playing forward and was not playing well, then he went back (for what ever reason) and became a better player.

Good to see the boys out there on Friday, and a good turn out from the supporters, great to see.