Let them fear Western Bulldogs - new coach Brendan McCartney

[1eyedog]

Re: Let them fear Western Bulldogs - new coach Brendan McCartney

That's the negative view point. The positive is the debutantes from this year will be playing their 50th games in 2013 and starting to contribute on a more consistent basis. The last of the class of 1999 will be gone so we will need players to step up and fill some of those roles.

Gia, Boyd, Cross, Murphy, Gilbee, Lake and Hargrave. It will be interesting to see what the these names can do in 2013. Bodies break down and deteriorate quickly.

Some of our young brigade will be approaching 50 games at the end of 2013, but to expect them all to step up and fill roles after 30 games is optimistic. Still, Hawthorn's and Geelong's kids did it I suppose.

[Bornadog]

Re: Let them fear Western Bulldogs - new coach Brendan McCartney

Sorry, I forgot I was supposed to be super positive like you.

The results in our B&F give me every right to believe that we are in for some hard times over the next 2 or 3 years.

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On the article it's a brave move by the coach to spruik such a positive message... I hope he has what it takes because there is little margain for error when making such bold promises.

Never said I was super positive or you should be - read again what I did say.

[Bornadog]

Re: Let them fear Western Bulldogs - new coach Brendan McCartney

Gia, Boyd, Cross, Murphy, Gilbee, Lake and Hargrave. It will be interesting to see what the these names can do in 2013. Bodies break down and deteriorate quickly.

I wouldn't be relying on Gia, Gilbee, or Hargrave. Murphy may start to struggle, Cross, Boyd and Lake will be interesting.

[Mantis]

Re: Let them fear Western Bulldogs - new coach Brendan McCartney

Never said I was super positive or you should be - read again what I did say.

You said that's the negative view point.

Regardless of how you perceive my view point to be I believe we are going to struggle over the short to mid term and I do not have the faith in the young players as you do.... especially when these younger players have to step up into more senior roles when the older players, who we heavily rely on, drop off.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Let them fear Western Bulldogs - new coach Brendan McCartney

UMM what else would you like for him to do 1 month in and off season?
All he can do is put forward his plans and he is doing that.
Whether they work isnt going to be known until the seasons going.
He seems to be saying the things we want to hear, certainly is recruiting assistants that are good with young players.
It all takes time, please tell me what you expected?

I read it as a message to the playing group, not to the supporters. He could say anything he likes to the fans, it probably won't matter a bit — I still know people who won't buy memberships because we haven't won a flag in nearly 60 years.

But if he's talking to the playing group, then it's exactly what needs to be said. He might be cringing inwardly himself, but to use another cliche, the line needs to be drawn and the playing group needs to decide which side they stand on.

Pretty much my thoughts. I certainly hope that everything goes to plan in 2012 but I have serious doubts that we're headed back to the top 8 next year. All I'm hoping for would be a nice transitional year and then a big push in 2013.

Agree. I think starting our next tilt from 2013-14 onwards is a realistic expectation. Flag in 2014-16.

That's the negative view point. The positive is the debutantes from this year will be playing their 50th games in 2013 and starting to contribute on a more consistent basis. The last of the class of 1999 will be gone so we will need players to step up and fill some of those roles.

+1

[1eyedog]

Re: Let them fear Western Bulldogs - new coach Brendan McCartney

I wouldn't be relying on Gia, Gilbee, or Hargrave. Murphy may start to struggle, Cross, Boyd and Lake will be interesting.

I would say out of all of them that Murphy is the most athletic and naturally gifted. I wouldn't be relying on any of them, except perhaps for Murph for that year.

[Bornadog]

Re: Let them fear Western Bulldogs - new coach Brendan McCartney

I would say out of all of them that Murphy is the most athletic and naturally gifted. I wouldn't be relying on any of them, except perhaps for Murph for that year.

Cross is the youngest and probably the fittest out of your list.

[1eyedog]

Re: Let them fear Western Bulldogs - new coach Brendan McCartney

Cross is the youngest and probably the fittest out of your list.

Indeed, but he's also the slowest and least versatile.

[Desipura]

Re: Let them fear Western Bulldogs - new coach Brendan McCartney

Cross is the youngest and probably the fittest out of your list.

Your positivity gets in the way of reality sometimes.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Let them fear Western Bulldogs - new coach Brendan McCartney

I saw that quote and thought we'd hear from you Fredi

What was Total Football about? Was it about as BMac seems to be interpreting for our purposes as being excellent at every element of the game?

Or did it just end up being spin from coaches?

I don't know what BMac means when he uses the term (probably what you said), but I can answer the question about what it means in soccer terms -- written about it in plenty of essays over the years. From a pure tactical perspective, it was simply demanding that every player had the capacity to play every position at any time as required -- prior to that term, more conventional teams like England etc. had very static positions, a defender was a defender etc., and when you remember that soccer and rugby has shared roots, you see where that tendency comes from.

However, some soccer nations, notably Hungary, and then Brazil, had already been taking positional fluidity to new heights with attacking full-backs etc. in the 1960s and 70s.

"Total football" was taking that fluidity to the next level -- its invention as a term is generally credited to Rinus Michels as coach of Ajax and the Dutch team in the early 70s, but it was also developed at the same time by Valeriy Lobanovski of Dinamo Kyiv and Russia, which were both great, tactically advanced teams back in the day. It starts from the point of 'systems' theory, where the constant combination and recombination of the energy of 11 elements in real-time beats a static interpretation of energy -- so even though it looked a little bit like the fluid football of the Brazilians, it was a lot more systematic (the Brazilians played instinctively and systems covered for them, whereas Total Football was a commitment to a very, very developed system, with expression allowed within it).

In everyday speak, it just means that instead of starting with a 'formation' or with a 'position', every player starts with the ability to solve problems as a group, and they constantly adjust according to that. In reality, it wasn't a totally fluid system, but they did end up with a LOT more goalscoring defenders. If you watch the first half of the 1974 World Cup final (which they ended up losing), you'll see an amazing display of interchanging and passing, which the more rigid West Germans couldn't get close to. They just didn't actually score, unfortunately.

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Some thoughts: The reality is, in footy, we have been practicing some tenets of Total Football for a long time anyway -- a lot of AFL players can play both forward and back as required, and we've had plenty of half-back flankers kicking goals on the run. However, if BMac intends it to be a tactical development, this bodes well for us -- after all, the zone and the press were developed in soccer as positional responses to Inter Milan's catenaccio (essentially an uberflood), just as it has happened in our game, and one of the tactical responses to the zone (and early press) in soccer was Total Football.

Everyone knows that the current Barcelona team is the most tactically sophisticated team in the history of soccer. Well, their footballing philosophy descends directly from that Cruyff Total Football team.. Cruyff played at Barca for years and was their director of football as well, and Michels also coached there, and they have had a massive Dutch influence over the years, especially at academy level. Barca's version of total football is far, far more developed though -- it incorporates a wide range of tactical developments, INCLUDING the press, and yes, they are so systemically dynamic that teams struggle to defend against them.

As a short-term tactical 'development', Total Football for AFL is well and fine, but the reality is, as it is for Barcelona -- truly mature tactical development takes YEARS. This is where AFL tactical development will eventually end up; after the tactical upheaval of the last 10 years (I call 1996, the year Rocket introduced the flood, 'year zero' of footy's postmodern era), where we have packed a lot of evolution into a short time after a century of stagnation, we'll end up with an entire palatte of stuff to choose from. In stockmarket parlance, tactical innovation in AFL still a growth stock, and anyone who can bring in some fully developed tactical innovation from another sport is going to get some short-term advantage and be able to sneak a flag before the game moves past you again. In five to ten years, this rate of innovation will slow down (a mature stock), and we'll only see incremental rather than revolutionary growth. At this point, teams will have to eke out marginal improvements and returns (maximise dividends) to gain advantages.

Hope I didn't bore anyone.

[Bornadog]

Re: Let them fear Western Bulldogs - new coach Brendan McCartney

Your positivity gets in the way of reality sometimes.

Sorry Desi thats just not true. If you and Mantis read my post carefully you will see what I wrote. I never said that the young guys will be any good or stars or anything. I said one positive is they will have more games in them and hopefully contributing on a more consistent basis - in 2013.

I would rather go through life being positive that constantly negative like some posters.

[Bornadog]

Re: Let them fear Western Bulldogs - new coach Brendan McCartney

Just a small question how is saying that Cross is both the youngest (fact) and fittest (fact of the list comprising Gia, Boyd, Cross, Murphy, Gilbee, Lake and Hargrave, needlessly positive?

It seems that the statement is a verifiable fact. Unless you are referring to his entire argument...

There are certain posters who just like to comment for the sake of a comment instead of having something constructive to say.

[Bornadog]

Re: Let them fear Western Bulldogs - new coach Brendan McCartney

I'd like to give Desi the benefit of the doubt on this but what you say can be sometimes true of all of us. We can be a little quick to shoot down opinions we either don't like or don't agree with. I maybe have harped on about this a bit recently but I really like this board and I don't want it to turn into facebook or the other board, where all I've been reduced to doing is making fun of other posters.

Yes I agree, overall, the board doesn't resort to this, and certainly Desi is not in that category.

[Desipura]

Re: Let them fear Western Bulldogs - new coach Brendan McCartney

Yes I agree, overall, the board doesn't resort to this, and certainly Desi is not in that category.

You see what Cross brings to the table with his fitness and immense courage.

I do not see how his fitness is superior to any other footballer playing, but what I do see is a serious lack of pace (Leigh Brown beat him in a race) in a game that is at frenetic pace. I also see how turnovers are more costly in todays game than ever before, he certainly does not deliver the ball well and in fact slows down the play so he does not turn it over).
When Cooney and Griffen are up and running I believe it masks our deficencies (lack of pace and ball use) somewhat in the midfield.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Let them fear Western Bulldogs - new coach Brendan McCartney

Sorry Desi thats just not true. If you and Mantis read my post carefully you will see what I wrote. I never said that the young guys will be any good or stars or anything. I said one positive is they will have more games in them and hopefully contributing on a more consistent basis - in 2013.

I would rather go through life being positive that constantly negative like some posters.

Here Here, I'am a glass half empty type, but when it come to my beloved dogs I'am the complete opposite. Having said that Bulldogs for the 2012 flag. One thing I will get good odds !