Dissecting the draft

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  • GVGjr
    Moderator
    • Nov 2006
    • 43913

    Dissecting the draft

    Worth a read.

    Dissecting the draft

    Emma Quayle | October 11, 2009

    With the trade period over, next on the AFL agenda is the national draft. Emma Quayle looks at the key questions surrounding this year's talent pool.

    So, is this year's draft really as bad as everyone has been saying?

    ''Yes'', was how one recruiting manager answered that question. ''It's mediocre,'' said another, and that seems a popular line of thinking. Each draft has ''layers'' of talent, and the very top layer this year is a small one. Where last year there were, say, 15 players any recruiter would have happily picked, this year some are nominating as few as four. Others say it's more like six, eight or 10. What happens? The consensus is, it evens out quickly, that you don't really want to be picking after 50 and that there are fewer certain prospects. ''It flatlines after 10,'' said a recruiter. ''That doesn't mean there aren't any reasonable players there, but there aren't any absolute guarantees, and everyone's list will be different. Someone's No. 11 will be someone else's 30.'' Said another: ''After 10, you could throw a blanket over 30 of them.'' Because the group is considered so even, this may be a draft where ''needs'' come into play with picks as early as the teens. Adding to that is that Melbourne and the Power will share so many early picks [they share seven of the first 18]. They might pick someone ahead of time with the last of their picks. It's a weird situation: the Port team's day will be done before Geelong starts at pick 17.

    Why is there no depth? The 17-year-olds have been removed - and they generally comprise about a third of any draft. One recruiter suspects 20 would have been drafted this year. Plus, many of those 17-year-olds - the best of whom have been signed by the Gold Coast - are very, very good players. At least three - Josh Toy, Maverick Weller and Luke Russell, plus possibly Trent McKenzie and one or two more - would have been first-round picks if they were in this year's draft. Toy would have pushed for top three. ''We'd be talking about what an amazingly good first round we had if those players were in it,'' said one recruiter. This draft could see a really low number of players chosen, and it's hard to see anyone taking more than their mandatory three picks [aside from perhaps Melbourne, Essendon, Fremantle and Richmond, the first two having loaded up with top 30 picks] and possibly Geelong, which needs to bring in kids. For the first time this season, clubs can use one of those three picks to upgrade a rookie, and I suspect quite a few will take this option. We could only have 50-something fresh players drafted.



    Read the article in full
    Western Bulldogs Football Club "Where it's cool to drool"
  • azabob
    Hall of Fame
    • Sep 2008
    • 15129

    #2
    Re: Dissecting the draft

    Interesting article- Some clubs rate the draft and others dont.

    What I find more interesting is the approach by the different clubs.

    St.Kilda's first pick is not till pick 32 then they dont have another one till pick 60.

    Hawthorn's first pick is not till 39, then 46, 57,58.

    Brisbane's first pick is not till 27.

    Where as Geelong have picks 17, 28, 40, 42, 56.

    Bulldogs have their round one and round two picks.

    Sydney even keeped their picks and improved their draft position - 2 first round picks and pick 38.
    Where as Collingwood also in the "coaching transition period" traded their first round pick to Sydney funnily enough.

    Roos appears to be doing the right thing by Longmire and Sydney, where as Malthouse is playing for the here and now.
    More of an In Bruges guy?

    Comment

    • Cyberdoggie
      WOOF Member
      • Jan 2007
      • 2859

      #3
      Re: Dissecting the draft

      Originally posted by bobmurphy
      Roos appears to be doing the right thing by Longmire and Sydney, where as Malthouse is playing for the here and now.
      Collingwood are going for a flag though and Sydney are rebuilding.

      Comment

      • comrade
        Hall of Fame
        • Jun 2008
        • 17847

        #4
        Re: Dissecting the draft

        Sydney could well have my dream draft and pick up Rohan and Talia with their first two selections.

        It's going to be a very interesting first round, with a number of teams having multiple picks.
        Our 1954 premiership players are our heroes, and it has to be said that Charlie was their hero.

        Comment

        • LostDoggy
          WOOF Member
          • Jan 2007
          • 8307

          #5
          Re: Dissecting the draft

          If the draft has proven anything (and I'm not sure it has), it's that recruiting is hardly a science, and all this talk about 'weak' and 'strong' drafts is just something recruiters crap on about every year. (I mean, how many 'gimmes' have recruiters as a group gotten wrong?) Some so-called 'superdraft' years haven't turned out to be all that great, and some supposedly mediocre years have had superstars pop up at pick 50+.

          The only real factor here is the absence of the 17 year olds, which would probably explain around 20 or so picks, but that doesn't mean that there won't be anyone in the 30s or 40s that won't turn out to be any good.

          I love the draft, but I think it's philosophically ridiculous that for so many clubs it seems to be the primary way of getting talent into the door, whereas I think there's as much value in the rookie list (as proven by the Dogs) and in mature-age talent as there is in a bunch of 18 year olds.

          Comment

          • Sockeye Salmon
            Bulldog Team of the Century
            • Jan 2007
            • 6365

            #6
            Re: Dissecting the draft

            Originally posted by Lantern
            If the draft has proven anything (and I'm not sure it has), it's that recruiting is hardly a science, and all this talk about 'weak' and 'strong' drafts is just something recruiters crap on about every year. (I mean, how many 'gimmes' have recruiters as a group gotten wrong?) Some so-called 'superdraft' years haven't turned out to be all that great, and some supposedly mediocre years have had superstars pop up at pick 50+.

            The only real factor here is the absence of the 17 year olds, which would probably explain around 20 or so picks, but that doesn't mean that there won't be anyone in the 30s or 40s that won't turn out to be any good.

            I love the draft, but I think it's philosophically ridiculous that for so many clubs it seems to be the primary way of getting talent into the door, whereas I think there's as much value in the rookie list (as proven by the Dogs) and in mature-age talent as there is in a bunch of 18 year olds.
            I love the way they talk about the 2001 'Superdraft'

            1. Hodge - gun
            2. Ball - over-rated, spent time in the VFL this year
            3. Judd - gun
            4. Polak - traded, headbutted tram
            5. Clarke - traded
            6. Sampi - *giggle*
            7. Hale - just a player, maybe
            8. Bartel - gun
            9. Molan - oh dear
            10. Power - hack
            11. Cole - hack
            12. Reilly - OK
            13. Del Santo - good player
            14. Watson - did he even play a game?
            15 Brooks - hack


            More than half the top 15 of the superdraft aren't even on their clubs lists any more.

            Comment

            • The Bulldogs Bite
              Hall of Fame
              • Dec 2006
              • 11048

              #7
              Re: Dissecting the draft

              Originally posted by Lantern
              I love the draft, but I think it's philosophically ridiculous that for so many clubs it seems to be the primary way of getting talent into the door, whereas I think there's as much value in the rookie list (as proven by the Dogs) and in mature-age talent as there is in a bunch of 18 year olds.
              Agreed.

              There's a fascination with 18 year olds and upside. For all the knowledge that recruiters have, a lot of them don't do nearly a good enough job.

              The next 2-4 years will be interesting. With GC/WS coming in, clubs will be forced to look more closely at the mature-age talent. I have no doubt we'll find quite a few success stories. The rookie draft was hardly rated a few years ago, it's now become extremely important and successful in the last few years.
              W00F!

              Comment

              • LostDoggy
                WOOF Member
                • Jan 2007
                • 8307

                #8
                Re: Dissecting the draft

                Originally posted by The Bulldogs Bite
                Agreed.

                There's a fascination with 18 year olds and upside. For all the knowledge that recruiters have, a lot of them don't do nearly a good enough job.

                The next 2-4 years will be interesting. With GC/WS coming in, clubs will be forced to look more closely at the mature-age talent. I have no doubt we'll find quite a few success stories. The rookie draft was hardly rated a few years ago, it's now become extremely important and successful in the last few years.
                The concept of 'upside' is a bizarre one in general. Of course plenty of kids will develop as they get older, but plenty don't, yet we waste resource on this investment as if it were a sure thing instead of the 50/50 gamble that it often is. A balanced list would surely have a bunch of high-potentials, mixed with proven talent that can be picked up from mature-age competitions -- the old-adage of 'a bird in hand is worth two in the bush' is one that comes to mind, but some teams seem to load up on only 'potential'.. the whole concept of 'tanking' is predicated on that.

                You're absolutely right that the ability to pick the right mature-age talent and developing a strong pipeline through the rookie list should become a more valuable skill in its own right and address the imbalance of the current over-reliance on the draft.

                Comment

                • Missing Dog
                  WOOF Member
                  • Jan 2007
                  • 8501

                  #9
                  Re: Dissecting the draft

                  A lot of this talk reminds of a book called Moneyball, it essentially focuses on a baseball club who goes against the 'traditional' thinking with regards to recruitment and talent identification and focus solely on players who have runs on the board and are statistically proven performers as opposed to potential. It allows them as a smaller club to compete with clubs who have much larger budgets and has worked for them over time.

                  Similarly for Premier League followers a club like Everton has also been successful by bringing in lesser known players who are able to provide a role yet wouldn't come as highly acclaimed as other big spending clubs.

                  It certainly makes for an interesting argument considering recruitment is far from a science and not to mention how much of an emphasis is placed on athletic attributes these days. For example the draft camp held to identify and analyze the best young players in the country have only this year introduced a sport specific test to identify their kicking skills, the rest of the tests are all athletic based.

                  Comment

                  • Sockeye Salmon
                    Bulldog Team of the Century
                    • Jan 2007
                    • 6365

                    #10
                    Re: Dissecting the draft

                    Originally posted by Swoop
                    A lot of this talk reminds of a book called Moneyball, it essentially focuses on a baseball club who goes against the 'traditional' thinking with regards to recruitment and talent identification and focus solely on players who have runs on the board and are statistically proven performers as opposed to potential. It allows them as a smaller club to compete with clubs who have much larger budgets and has worked for them over time.

                    Similarly for Premier League followers a club like Everton has also been successful by bringing in lesser known players who are able to provide a role yet wouldn't come as highly acclaimed as other big spending clubs.

                    It certainly makes for an interesting argument considering recruitment is far from a science and not to mention how much of an emphasis is placed on athletic attributes these days. For example the draft camp held to identify and analyze the best young players in the country have only this year introduced a sport specific test to identify their kicking skills, the rest of the tests are all athletic based.
                    Interesting examples.

                    Clubs who while usually competitive have actually won nothing.

                    Comment

                    • Missing Dog
                      WOOF Member
                      • Jan 2007
                      • 8501

                      #11
                      Re: Dissecting the draft

                      Originally posted by Sockeye Salmon
                      Interesting examples.

                      Clubs who while usually competitive have actually won nothing.
                      You could argue that both compete in an uneven competition due to ridiculous salary cap differences between the stronger clubs and the weaker meaning it's not an even playing field from the start, some clubs are simply playing for survival and have no intention of winning.

                      I guess the point I was trying to make was the logic and thought process behind recruiting & drafting.

                      Comment

                      • LostDoggy
                        WOOF Member
                        • Jan 2007
                        • 8307

                        #12
                        Re: Dissecting the draft

                        Good points Swoop and SS. Swoop, I was also thinking of Moneyball when I wrote my post, although the principles in Moneyball aren't as 'revolutionary' as they claim -- many teams work to those principles and have done so for a long time, and those practices are also widely practiced in the corporate world, for example.

                        But SS's point is also valid (and I think you're both in furious agreement) -- Everton and the like are competitive teams, but they're not going to be winning anything anytime soon, although their definition of 'winning' may very well be finishing regularly top 6 with a budget 5% of the top 4.

                        This definition of 'winning' doesn't work so well in the modern-day AFL as it is a salary cap/draft environment, where technically all teams should be in the same ballpark in terms of investment outlay, so we can't be happy with regular third places (even though we could be) because HYPOTHETICALLY every team should have a close-to-even chance of winning a premiership if managed well. This is probably why most teams don't seem to care about year-to-year consistency and is happy to 'bottom out' and put all their eggs in a two to three year 'window of opportunity' basket, rather than aim to be competitive year-in and year-out in the hope of pinching one.

                        I personally think that a winning culture is the best development environment for any draftee in any case, and one that is a bigger determinant of future success, rather than any magical expectations from a crop of 18-year-olds that may or may not turn out to be any good.

                        The reality is that no team that has so-called 'bottomed out' properly has actually won the Premiership yet -- the Saints this year came the closest, but it was actually a gun coach with a great team-oriented philosophy that took them there anyway, not necessarily the number of early draft picks they had (other than St. Nick and Goddard, their other early picks were Ball, who was in and out of the team, Raph and Xavier Clarke who were fringe players, and among their most important players were half-back flankers - Fisher and Gilbert - picked up in the 50s. Dal Santo was picked at 9, which is not a 'bottom' pick.) Other teams who have 'bottomed out' (ie. tanked) to get early picks (Carlton, Richmond) still have the same cultural problems that are holding them back. The last few Premiers -- Geelong, Sydney, West Coast, Essendon, Brisbane, Port, or North Melbourne and Adelaide, going back a bit -- all didn't tank.

                        Maybe the Hawks 'bottomed-out' a bit, but that's still only one out of the last 6 or 8 premiers, hardly a 'foolproof' blueprint for success!

                        Comment

                        • Dry Rot
                          Bulldog Team of the Century
                          • Jan 2007
                          • 6425

                          #13
                          Re: Dissecting the draft

                          Originally posted by Lantern
                          I personally think that a winning culture is the best development environment for any draftee in any case, and one that is a bigger determinant of future success, rather than any magical expectations from a crop of 18-year-olds that may or may not turn out to be any good.
                          Interesting point - is it better for a draftee to serve an apprenticeship in the VFL with a team with a winning culture (and a regular finalist) or be thrown into the deep end early on playing AFL with a bunch of tankers like the Demons?
                          The fight is here; I need ammunition, not a ride.

                          Comment

                          • KT31
                            Bulldog Team of the Century
                            • Jul 2008
                            • 5454

                            #14
                            Re: Dissecting the draft

                            Originally posted by Dry Rot
                            Interesting point - is it better for a draftee to serve an apprenticeship in the VFL with a team with a winning culture (and a regular finalist) or be thrown into the deep end early on playing AFL with a bunch of tankers like the Demons?
                            Once a tanker always a tanker.
                            It's better to die on our feet than live on our knees.

                            Comment

                            • Bulldog Revolution
                              Coaching Staff
                              • Dec 2006
                              • 3923

                              #15
                              Re: Dissecting the draft

                              Originally posted by Sockeye Salmon
                              I love the way they talk about the 2001 'Superdraft'

                              13. Del Santo - good player

                              More than half the top 15 of the superdraft aren't even on their clubs lists any more.
                              Its being particular, but Dal Santo is now in the gun category in my opinion

                              Comment

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