Book On The Bedside Table

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Re: Book On The Bedside Table

Having finished Niall Fergusons the Pity of War (1914-1918) I've now continued with the WW1 them and am reading Bloody Victory: The Sacrifice on the Somme and the Making of the Twentieth Century.

A very detailed analysis of the many months of the battle not just the most publiced initial shocking 1st day.

So far a great read.

[Twodogs]

Re: Book On The Bedside Table

Having finished Niall Fergusons the Pity of War (1914-1918) I've now continued with the WW1 them and am reading Bloody Victory: The Sacrifice on the Somme and the Making of the Twentieth Century.

A very detailed analysis of the many months of the battle not just the most publiced initial shocking 1st day.

So far a great read.

Did you know that there were more British casulties in one day at the battle of Towton (Wars Of The Roses-15th century) than there were on that first day at the Somme. They had machine guns at the Somme but at Towton men basically stood face to face and hacked each other to death with swords, axes and agricultural tools for nearly 12 hours.

Having to do something like that must really **** your mind up badly I reckon.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Re: Book On The Bedside Table

Did you know that there were more British casulties in one day at the battle of Towton (Wars Of The Roses-15th century) than there were on that first day at the Somme. They had machine guns at the Somme but at Towton men basically stood face to face and hacked each other to death with swords, axes and agricultural tools for nearly 12 hours.

Having to do something like that must really **** your mind up badly I reckon.

Very Brutal up close and personal warfare. Must have been absolute horror. Didn't both sides decide prior to the joining of battle that no quarter would be asked or given?

It is the bloodiest battle for sure on English soil, however I am not sure the casualty figures you quote are correct. Most accounts seem to state that that the casualties were between 25,000 and 30,000.

However I stand to be corrected, as I appreciate you know your War of the Roses Twodogs.

[Twodogs]

Re: Book On The Bedside Table

Very Brutal up close and personal warfare. Must have been absolute horror. Didn't both sides decide prior to the joining of battle that no quarter would be asked or given?

It is the bloodiest battle for sure on English soil, however I am not sure the casualty figures you quote are correct. Most accounts seem to state that that the casualties were between 25,000 and 30,000.

However I stand to be corrected, as I appreciate you know your War of the Roses Twodogs.

You're correct on all counts;


-Bloodiest battle;

From: http://www.wars-of-the-roses.com/con...les/towton.htm

Battle of Towton
29 March 1461

The Battle of Towton was the bloodiest ever fought on British soil, with casualties believed to have been in excess of twenty thousand (perhaps as many as thirty thousand) men. The battle took place on a snowy 29 March 1461 (Palm Sunday) on a plateau between the villages of Towton and Saxton in Yorkshire (about 12 miles southwest of York and about 2 miles south of Tadcaster).

-No quarter given;

Part of the reason so many died is perhaps because in the parley before the battle both sides agreed that no quarter would be given or asked, as they hoped to end it there and then

Those guys were proper hard bastards! Most of them had slept in an open field in a blinding snow storm the night before the battle.

however I am not sure the casualty figures you quote are correct. Most accounts seem to state that that the casualties were between 25,000 and 30,000

Remember that I said British casulties. THe best estimates I have seen for the first day at the Somme is 12,000 British casulties-I'm sure that when you add the German and Allied casulties to the overall total it would outstrip Townton but as far as purely British casualty numbers military historians are mainly agreed on 1461.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Re: Book On The Bedside Table

You're correct on all counts;


-Bloodiest battle;

From: http://www.wars-of-the-roses.com/con...les/towton.htm



-No quarter given;




Those guys were proper hard bastards! Most of them had slept in an open field in a blinding snow storm the night before the battle.



Remember that I said British casulties. The best estimates I have seen for the first day at the Somme is 12,000 British casulties-I'm sure that when you add the German and Allied casulties to the overall total it would outstrip Townton but as far as purely British casualty numbers military historians are mainly agreed on 1461.

You've piqued my interest into Towton...those sorts of casualties in what was a very close quarters battle arejust shocking to consider. I'm betting they didn't have winter warfare clothing in those times that would've stood up well in that snow storm either... Cold steel indeed!!!

The sheer number of casualties aside It must've also had a large effect on the English psyche given it was, so to speak, 'Brother against Brother' - similar to what the Americans experienced in Civil War battles like Antietam and Gettysburg. It must've taken along time for the English to heal those wounds and the emnity.


I'm not trying to get into a "My Battle was bigger than you're battle) but, on the Somme on 1 July 1916

British casualties on the first day were 20,000 dead and more than 35,000 wounded – ‘probably more than any army in any war on a single day’.

Yes I know that figure may also include colonial & Empire forces as well, but by and large the majority of the listed British casualties on day 1 were from true British forces. Although this is not to take away from the death toll of New Foundland and Irish casualties suffered on day 1. But they did not comprise the majority of those day 1 losses in comparison.

Most of the Empire casualties (Irish, South African, Canadian, New Zealand)were suffered in the ensuing weeks/months of the campain. Overall the British lost 360,000 and all other Territorial/Dominion forces lost about 85,000. The Australians who didn't start the battle til the 4th week lost 23,000!!

The British order of Battle on 1st day.

http://www.iwm.org.uk/upload/pdf/OrderofBattle-BritishInfantryUnits.pdf

http://www.johndclare.net/wwi2.htm

Some of the regiments that day reported 90% casualties, and due to the recruiting efforts to encourage blokes to sign up, they allowed 'Pals' or 'Chums' regiments to join up together and fight together. In many cases you had the bulk of young men from small towns join up, which due to the large scale industrialised killing resulted in tragic stories like that of the Accrington Pals


Approximately 700 men from the Accrington Pals went in to action on 1 July; 585 men became casualties, 235 killed and 350 wounded in about half an hour. The battalion's commander, Lieutenant Colonel A.W. Rickman was among the wounded. A rumour that spread around Accrington was that only seven men had survived from the battalion and an angry crowd surrounded the mayor's house, demanding information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accrington_Pals

There were so many similar tales like this in the English sector of the Somme. The French fared much better and made some big gains during the early stages of the battle, with relatively few casualties due to their better experience, better suited artillery and and a better tactical understanding of how to use their artillery more effectively.


What I found really interesting and shocking about the Battle of The Somme was what happened to the Australians who joined the fight during the 4th week of the Battle, at Pozieres Heights. We kicked the Germans out relatively easily, and when the German realised they couldn't retake the position they determined to instead make the position untenable for the Australians to hold by turning their guns toward it and just blasting it to pieces. The German artillery barrage lasted about 6 weeks and we suffered 23,000 casualties in holding the rubble that was Pozieres ridge.

We lost more in those 6 weeks than in the entire Gallipoli campaign.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Re: Book On The Bedside Table

Out of curiosity, Twodogs, how did your interest in the War of the Roses come about?

[Twodogs]

Re: Book On The Bedside Table

Out of curiosity, Twodogs, how did your interest in the War of the Roses come about?

I've always had a fascination for medieval kings that narrowed into being particularly interested in the Plantegenet and Norman kings. After a while that interest turned to medieval warfare-The battle of Hastings is another obsession of mine as well as Agincourt and the lesser known battle of Verneuil.



Vernuil; http://www.jeanne-darc.dk/p_war/0_battles/verneuil.html

http://www.historytimes.com/fresh-perspectives-in-history/medieval-history/621-beyond-azincourt

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Book On The Bedside Table

Recently read the following thriller novels;

* Think Of A Number
* Captured
* Malice

Think Of A Number was superb, the best book I've read. Highly suggest getting it if you're a fan of thrillers. Captured was alright, Malice was extremely good and I'd suggest picking that one up too.

[DOG GOD]

Re: Book On The Bedside Table

Hey TBB, i normally read King, Koontz and Herbert. Do u have any others u like in this vein or are u more into thriller than horror?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Re: Book On The Bedside Table

Hey TBB, i normally read King, Koontz and Herbert. Do u have any others u like in this vein or are u more into thriller than horror?

I'm more into thriller although I probably haven't given the horror genre a chance yet.

Any suggestions?

[DOG GOD]

Re: Book On The Bedside Table

im just getting into Koontz so wouldnt say anything just yet.

King i have read over 30 of his and really rate the following......
The Shining
Pet Semetary
It
Misery
Gerald's Game
Rose Madder
The Green Mile
Lisey's Story
Duma Key

The James Herbert novel i really rate is called The Dark

[comrade]

Re: Book On The Bedside Table

im just getting into Koontz so wouldnt say anything just yet.

King i have read over 30 of his and really rate the following......
The Shining
Pet Semetary
It
Misery
Gerald's Game
Rose Madder
The Green Mile
Lisey's Story
Duma Key

The James Herbert novel i really rate is called The Dark

Have you read any of The Dark Tower?

The first 3 or 4 are epic.

[BulldogBelle]

Re: Book On The Bedside Table

The latest book I'm reading is Sheer Madness - Sex, Lies and Politics by Jan Murray.

A very interesting book starts off with her childhood, meeting the love of her life John Brown, raising five children and her foray into being part of the political life and other aspects of her life. Talks about her infamous antics on the desk with her hubby which made big news at the time. Interesting insight she give into the quirky ways of some of the former Prime Ministers.

[Twodogs]

Re: Book On The Bedside Table

The latest book I'm reading is Sheer Madness - Sex, Lies and Politics by Jan Murray.

A very interesting book starts off with her childhood, meeting the love of her life John Brown, raising five children and her foray into being part of the political life and other aspects of her life. Talks about her infamous antics on the desk with her hubby which made big news at the time. Interesting insight she give into the quirky ways of some of the former Prime Ministers.

I thought I knew that name. Brown and Murray were the power couple who celebrated his rise to the Cabinet by having a quickie on the desk in his new office and then there was another scandal wasnt there? Was Brown involved in the Paddington Bear controversy?

[Twodogs]

Re: Book On The Bedside Table

Cold steel indeed!!!

They dont like it up 'em Sir!


ATM I am reading this;





Poor bloody animal! PT Barnham should have been whipped through the ****ing streets for what he put that elephant through.