Third Test- Aus V Sri Lanka, The SCG

[Rocco Jones]

Re: Third Test- Aus V Sri Lanka, The SCG

Fieldings improved markedly from two seasons back.
Cowan, Warner and Hughes are good in the field.
Seems more enthusiasm in the field as well.

Clarke too.

Gotta give it to Hughes, I thought he was a bit of a tool but he seems like he has really worked hard on his weaknesses.

IMO Siddle is a good fielder for a fast bowler, even if it's through hard work alone!

[lemmon]

Re: Third Test- Aus V Sri Lanka, The SCG

The keeping vs batting debate is interesting. I wonder how many runs difference there is between an average keeper and gun.

Need to be careful not to exagerate the difference as the errors really stick out and also even quality keepers aren't auto wickies (to borrow backyard cricket parlance). 1 missed chance over 2 innings that another keeper would surely take = touch on the high side for mine. How much is the average wicket worth? 30 runs?

Roughly speaking I would say the difference between a quality keeper vs an average keeper is about 10 runs per innings (I know 30 divided by 2 = 15 but as I said, touch on the high side and guns make errors too). I am pulling figures out of the air!

If Wade were to continue being an ordinary keeper and average over 40, what would a quality glovesman need to do with the bat to get into the side?

I don't particularly agree. Ian Healy will go down as a far better player than Alec Stewart despite an average of 27 and 4 hundreds compared to Stewarts 8000 test runs, 15 hundreds, at an average of 40. Its impossible to judge it on a statistical basis but if given a choice give me a Mark Boucher any day over Brad Haddin

[Rocco Jones]

Re: Third Test- Aus V Sri Lanka, The SCG

I don't particularly agree. Ian Healy will go down as a far better player than Alec Stewart despite an average of 27 and 4 hundreds compared to Stewarts 8000 test runs, 15 hundreds, at an average of 40. Its impossible to judge it on a statistical basis but if given a choice give me a Mark Boucher any day over Brad Haddin

Would be great to see data on exceptional catches/stumpings and missed chances alongside byes. Percentages on how often keepers take blinders and miss sitters.

I know it isn't very tangible but neither are errors in baseball.

[lemmon]

Re: Third Test- Aus V Sri Lanka, The SCG

Would be great to see data on exceptional catches/stumpings and missed chances alongside byes. Percentages on how often keepers take blinders and miss sitters.

I know it isn't very tangible but neither are errors in baseball.

But then we need to start taking into account effect on bowler and fielder morale, even impact on crowd involvement and flow ons into positive performance, god knows how all that is turned into meaningful stats. I'm a big believer in the idea that if the fielding side is an orchestra the keeper is your conductor, a great catch or save is huge on energy levels and general happiness among the wider team, and the nature of the game dictates that the keeper is the guy who will be most involved and most likely to execute such a task. Similarly there is nothing more draining on a cricket field than a missed chance. In my mind its no coincidence that the side who maintained the highest fielding standards in history had Australia's most skilled gloveman since perhaps Don Tallon in Ian Healy which was then carried on by the perhaps not as eye catching but efficient Gilchrist.

If we look at Australia's most successful teams: the invincible of the 40s, the team of the 70s, then the team of the 1990s and noughties we have wicketkeepers Tallon, Marsh, Healy and Gilchrist, the four best Australia have produced. Can't neglect to mention Wally Grout, averaged 15 with the bat but Australia never lost a series in his decade as keeper, he weighed into the debate about keeping v batting once after dropping Lindsay Hassett who went on to score a double he said he would never make up those 200 runs and managed a combined 7 in both innings.

[GVGjr]

Re: Third Test- Aus V Sri Lanka, The SCG

Fieldings improved markedly from two seasons back.
Cowan, Warner and Hughes are good in the field.
Seems more enthusiasm in the field as well.

I think both Cowan and Hughes are just average fieldsman especially when compared to Ponting and Hussey.

[Sedat]

Re: Third Test- Aus V Sri Lanka, The SCG

Neither Gilchrist or Haddin were particularly exceptional glovemen, and Haddin was nigh on rubbish with the gloves late in his career. Wade has been a little sloppy but no worse than either. He needs to improve his glovework, especially to the spinners, but I'm confident he will work hard to do soabd become a long term fixture in the national side. He certainly makes mor 'important' runs than kamikaze Haddin ever did.

[chef]

Re: Third Test- Aus V Sri Lanka, The SCG

I think Wade is lucky to have the job and at the time I think I would have gone with Neville.
Regarding Paine, I think we need to look past his batting averages etc because I think he has a Test standard temperament. The issue is if his injuries will prevent him going further.

Never rated Hartley's batting but it has come along heaps in the last 18 months. I think he would be a solid selection but we won't look past Wade anytime soon.

We need to resist the temptation to bat him at 6 though.

Bit of a worry that Wade will be a liability in India behind the stumps to the spinners.

[GVGjr]

Re: Third Test- Aus V Sri Lanka, The SCG

Neither Gilchrist or Haddin were particularly exceptional glovemen, and Haddin was nigh on rubbish with the gloves late in his career. Wade has been a little sloppy but no worse than either. He needs to improve his glovework, especially to the spinners, but I'm confident he will work hard to do soabd become a long term fixture in the national side. He certainly makes mor 'important' runs than kamikaze Haddin ever did.

In my opinion, certainly Gilchrist started a lot better than what Wade has but yes he wasn't a great gloveman in the pure sense.

To me Haddin is on a par with Wade with the gloves but Haddin was probably a better team man than Wade. Wade really doesn't push the side like a lot of keepers.

Wade will not lose the job though unless he is injured.

[GVGjr]

Re: Third Test- Aus V Sri Lanka, The SCG

Bit of a worry that Wade will be a liability in India behind the stumps to the spinners.

Liability might be too strong of a word.

[dog town]

Re: Third Test- Aus V Sri Lanka, The SCG

Wade will improve and grow into the role as he feels more comfortable in the side. He isn't going anywhere mainly because he is too good a bat for the selectors to drop him. The other reason is that the only person who is a viable replacement is Haddin and the selectors have moved on from him it seems. Paine has 1 first class century for his entire career and is hitting them at 15 this year. Needs to do lots more than that before Wade even starts to feel pressure.

[Sedat]

Re: Third Test- Aus V Sri Lanka, The SCG

To me Haddin is on a par with Wade with the gloves but Haddin was probably a better team man than Wade. Wade really doesn't push the side like a lot of keepers.

Interesting comment and not sure I agree. I'd have thought Wade is better serving the team by the way he places a premium on his wicket in important moments much more than what Haddin did. Wade scored very important runs in the West Indies on 2-3 occasions when Australia really needed them, he did so again in Perth this summer (poor dismissal aside) against a rampant Sth African bowling line-up to stop our 1st innings from completely disintegrating, and his ton in this match was also scored at an extremely important time. Arguably Wade performs poorer with the bat when the pressure is off and runs aren't as important (ie: Boxing Day).

By contrast I remember Haddin charging the bowling at Newlands late in 2011 when Australia were bowled out for 47 - probably the worst dismissal I've seen considering the context of that particular match. That's not to say Haddin wasn't a good replacement for Gilly - he was, and to be perfectly honest it was a thankless task to have to take over from such a legend.

[GVGjr]

Re: Third Test- Aus V Sri Lanka, The SCG

Interesting comment and not sure I agree. I'd have thought Wade is better serving the team by the way he places a premium on his wicket in important moments much more than what Haddin did.

I'm focusing more on the 'energy' that wicket keepers generate for the fielding team from behind the stumps rather than in front of the stumps with a bat.
To me Wade is yet to demonstrate an ability to lift the team the way Haddin, Gilchrist and Healy did.

I thought Tim Zoehrer was about the best gloveman I have seen for Australia but I never thought he was a team orientated player who sensed when the team was starting to get flat in the field and sparked them up with his own energy. Wade strikes me as someone similar.
Wicket keepers are the barometer for the fielding side so they need to be vocal and even sharp with the balance of the side when things are staring to drop off. It can't just be the captain.

I don't have a problem with Wade but in general terms I would gladly trade 10 runs off a WK batting average for a sensational gloveman who kept the fielding side on their toes and provided input to the captain on how the bowlers are performing.

Wade just needs to improve his concentration in the field and to take on a more senior position with the side. I don't think he has any real flaws with his glove work and he is a very solid batsman.

[Twodogs]

Re: Third Test- Aus V Sri Lanka, The SCG

Great piece of gamesmanship by Herath. He knew he was gone so he just ran in front of Wade's line to avoid the run out.


Wade managed to throw the ball over Johnson's head.



*edit* thank god for Bird!

[Twodogs]

Re: Third Test- Aus V Sri Lanka, The SCG

But then we need to start taking into account effect on bowler and fielder morale, even impact on crowd involvement and flow ons into positive performance, god knows how all that is turned into meaningful stats. I'm a big believer in the idea that if the fielding side is an orchestra the keeper is your conductor, a great catch or save is huge on energy levels and general happiness among the wider team, and the nature of the game dictates that the keeper is the guy who will be most involved and most likely to execute such a task. Similarly there is nothing more draining on a cricket field than a missed chance. In my mind its no coincidence that the side who maintained the highest fielding standards in history had Australia's most skilled gloveman since perhaps Don Tallon in Ian Healy which was then carried on by the perhaps not as eye catching but efficient Gilchrist.

If we look at Australia's most successful teams: the invincible of the 40s, the team of the 70s, then the team of the 1990s and noughties we have wicketkeepers Tallon, Marsh, Healy and Gilchrist, the four best Australia have produced. Can't neglect to mention Wally Grout, averaged 15 with the bat but Australia never lost a series in his decade as keeper, he weighed into the debate about keeping v batting once after dropping Lindsay Hassett who went on to score a double he said he would never make up those 200 runs and managed a combined 7 in both innings.

Beautifully put Lem. I really agree with the bolded bit. Wicketkeepers set the standard for how well a team performs in the field. I always thought that Haddin stood to far back and our slippers suffered because catches didnt carry.

[Bornadog]

Re: Third Test- Aus V Sri Lanka, The SCG

In my opinion, certainly Gilchrist started a lot better than what Wade has but yes he wasn't a great gloveman in the pure sense.

To me Haddin is on a par with Wade with the gloves but Haddin was probably a better team man than Wade. Wade really doesn't push the side like a lot of keepers.

Wade will not lose the job though unless he is injured.

You have to remember Wade is only 25 years old. I think he will improve his keeping in time.

Too many Australians are quick to shoot down guys when they are just starting a test career. Even Rod Marsh had the nickname iron gloves.