Best CHF in the AFL in 2008

[Dancin' Douggy]

Re: Best CHF in the AFL in 2008

They would not survive in today's game. Opposition defenders would work them over the other way until they blow up. And what does Hahn have exactly if it's not a big body and can't take a strong pack mark? He would be no more than 2-3 cms shorter than both Lockett and Loewe.

Jono Brown is an exceptional footballer, not just because he can take a contested grab but because he has such a big motor that he can work his direct opponent into the ground and also take uncontested marks on the lead. Barry Hall isn't in the same class but does the same thing. Ditto Mooney. While we are at it, substitute Ottens for Minson and you can see exactly who we are trying to emulate with our forward structure. Rocca is an exceptional pack mark but he is getting worked over the other way and blows up after 30 mins as a result.

We don't have Jon Brown, so what we are doing is the next best thing by playing two players with different skill sets on the arc. The results this season bear that out - funny that both Hahn and Murphy were rcovering from a knee and suffered soft tissue/shoulder injuries respectively in 2007 and the arse fell out of our season as a result. Even in 2006, we were flying early and then started losing regularly once Murph and Hahn went down a couple of weeks apart.

Tony Lockett would tear shreds off any team any time anywhere. Never underestimate Plugger. Look at his highlight reel. He was incredibly fast for his size, was impossible to tackle and kicked a lot of goals from 'play', breaking tackles and snapping over his shoulder on either foot.
Sorry Sedat but I can't let that one go......

[LostDoggy]

Re: Best CHF in the AFL in 2008

They would get double and triple teamed, have little or no room to move, be unable to assert their influence on the game and would get punished the other way by attacking defenders like Scarlett. It's not Lockett v the full back any more, it's Lockett v 3 defenders at every contest.

Rubbish! The game hasnt changed that much. Long kicking and contested footy still wins games. Key big forwards win games. Lockett would still kick 8 goals against most back lines. And if he is tripl teamed you use the other options.

Hahn has great hands and can take a contested grab. At worst, he creates a spillage - he's very rarely out-marked.

His hands are ok, far from great. Johnno has great hands, Hill has nice hands, Mitchs are ok. Granted he creates spillage.

The comparison was structural and therefore relevant - nobody was suggesting that Minson is a better player than Ottens.

Geelong players have faith in Ottens,they can kick it long to him under pressure. Minson couldnt catch a bus most weeks.

Sorry you're right, it's 15 minutes. Go watch the 2006 Elimination Final again - all it took to render Rocca useless for the entire game was one chase on McMahon from the back pocket to the wing in the 1st quarter. The game has changed - contested marking targets who can't break free of their defensive opponents like Rocca, Gehrig and Whitnall are the past.

Rocca would be very handy in our team. And Fraser gehrig is 32, what else would u expect. 2yrs ago he was very good. Once again, the game hasnt changed BIG players win games.

Adelaide and Sydney are two of the best practitioners of defensive football going around. St Kilda is also very defensively oriented in their game plan - 3 out of 3 so far.

Both Adelaide and Sydney are not 'Top cLass' football sides. They might be ok definsivly, but they dont hurt you offensively. Scoreboard pressure is a killer.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Re: Best CHF in the AFL in 2008

Lockett would kick 100 goals a year just from free kicks today. He would also spend 8 weeks a year out suspended and have 4 opponents every week.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Best CHF in the AFL in 2008

I've thought for a while that you had never seen a game of footy in your life.
Now I am absolutely convinced you've certainly never seen a Collingwood game anyway.

Rocca is second only to Mal Michael for hopeless endurance. Rocca lasts 10 minutes, Michael only lasts 5.

Bit rich, coming from someone who tipped the Dockers to finish top 4 preseason.

[Twodogs]

Re: Best CHF in the AFL in 2008

Bit rich, coming from someone who tipped the Dockers to finish top 4 preseason.

Dont change the subject when you've been called on something.



Rocca, does he run games out or not?



How would Tony Lockett prevent Brian Lake from spending pretty much the whole game in our forward 50 kicking just as many goals as Plugger would while he stood in the goal square at the other end waiting for the ball to be kicked to him? It's a different game now, players are more mobile and move around the ground more to expose the defincies in their opponents.

Dont compare Minson to Ottens. Ottens is twice the player,with a great set of hands and a deadly kick for goal. Minson is an honest battler/ second string ruck.

Whilst you're obviously just being disingenious to undermine a debate you arent winning you left out a few things like Ottens constant battle with soft tissue injuries, his brittle mindset and the kicking yips that affect him twice a season. Minson has many quailities that Ottens just will never have-I dont think an opponent ever wondered where Ottens was when he was about to pick up the ball-I bet thats the first thing they think in our forward line. Ottens has played a season and a half of good footy over two clubs. You might want to wait for him to play consistant footy over an acceptable time period before you start using him as a debating point.

I say it again, wait to we get pressure from better sides, watch the small half forward line struggle.

Which sides? Name one. Just one side that we should be quaking in our boots about destroying our small forward line.

[LostDoggy]

Re: Best CHF in the AFL in 2008

Dont change the subject when you've been called on something.



Rocca, does he run games out or not?



How would Tony Lockett prevent Brian Lake from spending pretty much the whole game in our forward 50 kicking just as many goals as Plugger would while he stood in the goal square at the other end waiting for the ball to be kicked to him? It's a different game now, players are more mobile and move around the ground more to expose the defincies in their opponents.




Whilst you're obviously just being disingenious to undermine a debate you arent winning you left out a few things like Ottens constant battle with soft tissue injuries, his brittle mindset and the kicking yips that affect him twice a season. Minson has many quailities that Ottens just will never have-I dont think an opponent ever wondered where Ottens was when he was about to pick up the ball-I bet thats the first thing they think in our forward line. Ottens has played a season and a half of good footy over two clubs. You might want to wait for him to play consistant footy over an acceptable time period before you start using him as a debating point.




Which sides? Name one. Just one side that we should be quaking in our boots about destroying our small forward line.

Funniest thing i have read in years. Brian Lake isnt good enough to clean Pluggers boots, let alone play on him (and 'destroy' him).

[Twodogs]

Re: Best CHF in the AFL in 2008

Funniest thing i have read in years. Brian Lake isnt good enough to clean Pluggers boots, let alone play on him (and 'destroy' him).

Answer the question properly. Exactly how would Plugger stop Lake running off him? He wouldnt be able to run with him and simply kinghitting him is no longer an option.



There are also three other queations you have conveneintly ignored. Think very hard Jerry. The very small amount of credibility you have left is on the line here. Personally I dont think you have the footy smarts to understand what you're talking about.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Re: Best CHF in the AFL in 2008

Answer the question properly. Exactly how would Plugger stop Lake running off him? He wouldnt be able to run with him and simply kinghitting him is no longer an option.



There are also three other queations you have conveneintly ignored. Think very hard Jerry. The very small amount of credibility you have left is on the line here. Personally I dont think you have the footy smarts to understand what you're talking about.

I'm weighing in here. If I may.
For a start. If plugger played today he would be fitter than he was in the eighties.
Brian Lake wouldn't dare run off him too often because a turn over banged into the forward line, no matter how randomly or hurriedly would nearly always be turned into a goal by Plugger if Lake wasn't there right beside him.

I don't know how old you are but you're talking about the Greatest Full Forward ever. A mighty athlete with size, strength, pace, agression and a surprising vertical leap. All he needed was a sniff and he would plough through packs of defenders to convert goal after goal after goal.
He could outmark 3 or 4 opponents regularly.

To portray him as a fat bozo standing an the goal square as Lake runs off to kick goal after goal after goal saying..... " wha'happened?....." is ridiculous.

[Bornadog]

Re: Best CHF in the AFL in 2008

I'm weighing in here. If I may.
For a start. If plugger played today he would be fitter than he was in the eighties.
Brian Lake wouldn't dare run off him too often because a turn over banged into the forward line, no matter how randomly or hurriedly would nearly always be turned into a goal by Plugger if Lake wasn't there right beside him.

I don't know how old you are but you're talking about the Greatest Full Forward ever. A mighty athlete with size, strength, pace, agression and a surprising vertical leap. All he needed was a sniff and he would plough through packs of defenders to convert goal after goal after goal.
He could outmark 3 or 4 opponents regularly.

To portray him as a fat bozo standing an the goal square as Lake runs off to kick goal after goal after goal saying..... " wha'happened?....." is ridiculous.

I agree, great post DD, plugger is the greatest FF of all time.

It is very difficult to compare players of the past with present as today they are full time ATHLETES with the benefits of sports science, diateticians, medicos on the spot, training that is second to none, GPS, heart rate monitoring etc etc.

On the other hand, its unfair to talk about Lake in the manner our friend Jerry does as that is not a proper debate but rather gutter talk.

[Topdog]

Re: Best CHF in the AFL in 2008

Plugger would be a very different player today. He would be quicker but at the same time probably wouldn't be as strong physically.

[ledge]

Re: Best CHF in the AFL in 2008

Plugger the greatest full forward of all time?
Always debatable, rather say he was the greatest of his time , but then again Dunstall was pretty good and didnt Beasley kick the most goals in AFL over a ten year period? not that he compares just thought i would note it.
Hudson? Mc Kenna?Coventry? Pratt? Coleman? Ablett?
Better to say best of his era.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Re: Best CHF in the AFL in 2008

I'm weighing in here. If I may.
For a start. If plugger played today he would be fitter than he was in the eighties.
Brian Lake wouldn't dare run off him too often because a turn over banged into the forward line, no matter how randomly or hurriedly would nearly always be turned into a goal by Plugger if Lake wasn't there right beside him.

I don't know how old you are but you're talking about the Greatest Full Forward ever. A mighty athlete with size, strength, pace, agression and a surprising vertical leap. All he needed was a sniff and he would plough through packs of defenders to convert goal after goal after goal.
He could outmark 3 or 4 opponents regularly.

To portray him as a fat bozo standing an the goal square as Lake runs off to kick goal after goal after goal saying..... " wha'happened?....." is ridiculous.

Lake would run off him just the same as all defenders run forward of their opponents as they do now and if the ball rebounded Lockett would kick a goal, just like happens now.

Lake is taller than Lockett and very strong. He would matchup as well as anyone. Lockett was good but like anyone else was beatable. I remember Tony Campbell holding Lockett goalless at the Whitten Oval and Lake is a far, far better matchup (and player) than Campbell was.

[Sedat]

Re: Best CHF in the AFL in 2008

Tony Lockett would tear shreds off any team any time anywhere. Never underestimate Plugger. Look at his highlight reel. He was incredibly fast for his size, was impossible to tackle and kicked a lot of goals from 'play', breaking tackles and snapping over his shoulder on either foot.
Sorry Sedat but I can't let that one go......

Lockett was a mighty player in his era, one of the best I've seen. But his career was played in a vastly different era with completely different tactial dynamics. Sheeds rendered Lockett virtually useless one afternoon at Moorabbin by the revolutionary tactic of playing Dean Wallis in the hole. Factor in today's game the zone defensive structures, loose players in defence, opposition midfielders swarming back to assist the defence, and even a guy as naturally talented as Plugger would struggle in today's game. He was pretty sharp off the mark but then his oppenents today would be much quicker than full backs from his era. He never possessed a big engine (didn't need to), and as a result he would not be capable of running with his direct opponent when that player would invariably gallop up field to provide an attacking option. As Sockeye also rightly pointed out, he would invariably lose his rag and find himself suspended more often than not. To survive and thrive today, he would need to be 100% fitter, defensively oriented (blocking and sheparding for his team-mates), far less inclined to be the only goal scoring option (a bit like Brown does for Bradshaw at Brisbane, and franlkin for Roughy at the Hawks), and lighter (therefore losing some core strength). Let's not forget he was only 191cms, which is a tall midfielder these days, so he would need to possess many attributes to his game that he would never have thought to consider during his playing days.

Your Jon Brown's, Nick Reiwoldt's, Cam Mooney's and Barry Hall's all have big engines, and they have quick pace off the mark. They are able to contribute defensively to the team cause. Their ability to take a contested grab is a bonus to the team, but if that was all they could do, they too would struggle in today's game. These guys are all multi-skilled, unlike previous 70+ goals a season players like Whitnall, Gehrig and Rocca who can all tak a strong pack mark but can't do much else. Even Lloyd, who is a champion in the top 10 all-time goalkickers list, is struggling to cope with the lack of space afforded to him in today's game.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Re: Best CHF in the AFL in 2008

IMO he's the best. And the stats pretty much back that up.

[Topdog]

Re: Best CHF in the AFL in 2008

Best for his time. Wouldn't be that brilliant in today's game.